Another one off the hook

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ComedyPilot

Secret Lemonade Drinker
http://www.thisishullandeastriding....P-cyclist-73/story-13928258-detail/story.html

Sad story, even sadder are some of the knuckle-dragging comments coming out.

I ride to work on this road, and have been double-overtaken (car passing me is also overtaken by another car) - on a single-carriageway road. I have been forced off the road by people overtaking me and coming back in too soon. Worst of all, I have been forced off the road twice by cars overtaking coming in the opposite direction and not waiting a few seconds for me to pass - so off onto the verge I go.

I was wearing hi-viz, and had two very bright led lights on (in daylight) - they saw me all right, and chose to force me off the road. Where else was I to go? Wobble/fall onto soft grass, or leave my DNA all over the bonnet of a silver Vectra at 60mph?

A cyclist dies, and they (motoring public) round on and blame the cyclist, and rant about RLJing, no road tax, no lights et al.

It seems to me that a 'mild inconvenience' caused by a cyclist to a motorist far exceeds the death caused by a motorist.

Are our journeys as motorists so much more important than a human life?
 

mcshroom

Bionic Subsonic
It is indeed a sad fact that a few seconds delay in a car is the most extreme torture that a driver can be forced to endure, and it leaves them so emotionally scarred.

Reading that article, there isn't enough information to make any conclusions about the case in question, but indeed the insensitive ranting by the keyboard warriors below is as disgusting as normal
 
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ComedyPilot

ComedyPilot

Secret Lemonade Drinker
Knowing the road, I am 'assuming' the bloke rode onto the carriageway and was either hit by her vehicle entering the roundabout (in a 30mph zone) from the A164, or he was hit by her vehicle as she exited the roundabout and on to the A164 (also in a 30).

My view is, as motorists, that we have a duty of care to show caution around vulnerable road users.

I drive along constantly risk assessing my journey, Will that lorry stop? Has that car seen me? Will the woman with the pram step out? Is that dog under control?

As such I am already "planning to stop", and it's only circumstance that allows me to "proceed"

It seems like the vast majority of drivers seem to have the mindset of, "I am planning to proceed", and it's only circumstance that will make me "stop"

If that woman (and a lot of drivers besides) used the mantra, "If I cannot safely bring my vehicle to a halt in the space I can see to be clear in front of my vehicle, then I am driving TOO FAST", there would be virtually zero fatalities.

As it is though, we have a general motoring population that seem at ease with an annual cull on the roads of over 2000 people.

I aren't one of them.
 

PBancroft

Senior Member
Location
Winchester
I was going to post on the article, but it wouldn't let me. I was intending to write as follows:

@mj1000 the difference is cyclists rarely kill other people. A stupid cyclist riding on a pavement hits someone the victim will be injured but probably live. A stupid driver not looking for other road users hits someone is quite likely to kill them - especially if they don't have a ton of metal around them as protection.

The thought should be less "think bike" or "think pedestrian" but rather "think HUMAN"
 

Bicycle

Guest
This is a sad story, but these things happen.

I'm not sure why the thread is entitled 'Another one off the hook'.

The decision was that there was no case to answer. To convict under those circumstances would be bizarre.

As to motorists posting under the story, do we really expect the sane and the reasonable to do this?

In this fabulous, multi-media age, the people who post hurtful comments under online news stories are the true successors of those who once rang in to radio stations. They are not representative of all motorists.

We have only the news story to base out views on.

It's a sad story, it happens too often, but nobody is helped very much by threads blaming 'the motoring public' (who are they?) for rounding on cyclists.
 
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ComedyPilot

ComedyPilot

Secret Lemonade Drinker
I am still puzzled how she could drive in a forwards direction, and hit a human being, in a 30mph area, in daylight?

And then have 'no case to answer'

Where the hell was she looking?

It goes back to my mantra: "If I cannot safely bring my vehicle to a halt in the space I can see to be clear in front of my vehicle, then I am driving TOO FAST"

Ergo, if I am driving forwards and I hit something in my lane I am at fault for not making avoidance maneuvers.

At the minimum she should be banned and have to sit an extensive re-test. Anything less is a total lack of respect for the human life her driving took away.
 

Glow worm

Legendary Member
Location
Near Newmarket
This is a sad story, but these things happen.

I'm not sure why the thread is entitled 'Another one off the hook'.

The decision was that there was no case to answer. To convict under those circumstances would be bizarre.

There is a long history in the UK of drivers either getting off completly (as in this case) or receiving risible punishment for dreadful driving that often results in death of cyclist or peds.

It seems to me if you bash someone to death with a baseball bat, you will get done for murder or manslaughter, yet if you do the same, but happen to attach the baseball bat to your car, you'll get points on your licence and a £100 fine.

There needs to be far more recognition within our legal system of the seriousness of these offences and far greater punishment for those who kill others on the roads as a consequence of their own stupidity.

As for 'who are the motoring public' well numerous studies over the years have shown that the majority of UK car joiurneys are under 3 miles (I think the figure is something like 75%). In my village, I have neighbours who think nothing of driving 500 yards to the shop and back for their beer, fags and chips. The same creatures drive 300 yds to take their tubby offspring to the village school, (daily blocking the street in the process). So there's your motoring public- many of them are a rather feckless, and lazy bunch, who also know that if they kill anyone, they'll get away with it!
 

Bicycle

Guest
Fair point, but I disagree.

If you bash someone to death with a baseball bat, the likelihood is that you have murdered them (dependent on the circumstances).

If someone dies in a collision and there seems to be evidence of wrongdoing, a case will need to be prepared.

In this case it was, but the final decision was that there was no case to answer. No-one 'got off completely'. There was no case to answer.

As to the motoring public, almost everyone I know falls into that category, cyclists and non-cyclists alike. None of us would drive 300 yards. None of us has tubby offspring.

This motoring public you identify may represent a minority or a majority I do not know and have rarely met.

They are no more 'the motoring public' than verbally-abusive, ninja, RLJ scallies are the cycling public.

If we start to thimnk like that, there is a danger it will all start to look a little 'them and us'. For all of us (and particularly those of us who sit happily in both camps) that is not a very constructive direction.
 

Glow worm

Legendary Member
Location
Near Newmarket
As to the motoring public, almost everyone I know falls into that category, cyclists and non-cyclists alike. None of us would drive 300 yards. None of us has tubby offspring.

Then the research indicating that the UK has the highest obesity rates in Europe are wrong? I take your point about murder, but I do feel strongly (as do many on here) that sentences for careless and dangerous driving are woefully inadequate. As for ninjas and RLJs well that sounds suspiciously like the same old claptrap trotted out by the hateMail and the like. Such individuals are only likely to harm themselves, whereas drivers as we all know are far more likely to injure or kill others. Just look at the stats for numbers of people killed on the roads each year - how many are killed by cyclists?

The fact is we are addicted to cars here, and this dependency is something that could and should be addressed for the benefit of all in terms of pollution, climate change, health and the kind of society we wish to passs on to future generations. This guy has a lot of stuff on this in Holland (home zones and suchlike) and how we could be shaping our public spaces for the benefit of communities, not cars - worth a look- try this article for starters. http://hembrow.blogspot.com/2011/11/retrofitting-sanity-to-residential.html
 

Bicycle

Guest
Then the research indicating that the UK has the highest obesity rates in Europe
are wrong?

No, I do not question the data. That's not what I meant; my language was unclear. I meant that none of my circle of motoring friends has tubby offspring. Clearly, there are many tubby children in the UK, but I was trying to suggest that there are members of the motoring public who are not tubby, do not drive to the chippy and do not think they can kill with impunity. In my experience, most road users are skilled, courteous and thoughtful.

As for ninjas and RLJs well that sounds suspiciously like the same old claptrap trotted out by the hateMail and the like.

Yes, I agree. My mention of the ninjas was to highlight the danger of using tired generalisations. I raised the image of the RLJ-ing ninja simply because that is how some motorists see 'the cycling public'. I was suggesting that the image is as inaccurate a generalistaion as the one cyclists occasionally seem to peddle about the 'motoring public'. Neither group is accurately representative of the whole.

The fact is we are addicted to cars here.

I'm not sure we are addicted to cars here, in any sense of the phrase. It is not a fact. While they remain a useful, viable, affordable means of transport people will use them. When they are no longer so, they will stop using them. Certainly, many people have come to rely on their utility, but I do not think that is an addiction. I've come to rely on the regular train service to Paddington, a break in the weather so I can poison the weeds, a breeze to dry my laundry... but I'm not addicted to any of those. Nor am I addicted to cars, without which many aspects of my family life would be much harder or even impossible. I believe many motorists simply see cars as they might see their dishwasher or their hedgetrimmer.

I don't mean to sound dismissive here; I think this is an interesting area of debate. I like some of the points you make, but I do feel the issue can become unhelpfully divisive when phrases like the title of the post are used, or when broad generalisations about 'the motoring public' are made.
 

Glow worm

Legendary Member
Location
Near Newmarket
Fair points and I agree the majority of drivers are safe and courteous (in my experience anyway). I believe that a large proportion of jouneys are currently undertaken by car that could be done so in other ways (the ludicrously short ones for example). Often, it never occurs to people that they could walk or cycle instead, because driving has become so second nature to them. This is why the likes of many on here receive gasps of disbelief from non-cycling friends and colleagues when they find out we have cycled all of a couple of miles to work! (or 10 in my case). So maybe addiction is the wrong word- perhaps its more habit (and a little lazyness).

This is why it is so heartbreaking to come back to the UK after a trip to Holland for example, where cycling is a part of everyday life for pretty much everyone who is able bodied. We are probably about 40 years behind in this and at this rate (i.e. successive Governments paying lip service to cycling and the plethora of solutions it could offer) we'll never get close which I feel is such a pity.
 

Crankarm

Guru
Location
Nr Cambridge
Fair point, but I disagree.

If you bash someone to death with a baseball bat, the likelihood is that you have murdered them (dependent on the circumstances).

If someone dies in a collision and there seems to be evidence of wrongdoing, a case will need to be prepared.

In this case it was, but the final decision was that there was no case to answer. No-one 'got off completely'. There was no case to answer.

As to the motoring public, almost everyone I know falls into that category, cyclists and non-cyclists alike. None of us would drive 300 yards. None of us has tubby offspring.

This motoring public you identify may represent a minority or a majority I do not know and have rarely met.

They are no more 'the motoring public' than verbally-abusive, ninja, RLJ scallies are the cycling public.

If we start to thimnk like that, there is a danger it will all start to look a little 'them and us'. For all of us (and particularly those of us who sit happily in both camps) that is not a very constructive direction.

Errr ........ committing murder by bashing some one with a baseball bat requires mens rea (intention) and actus rea (the act). Have you heard of these legal concepts? To commit murder a perpetrator would have to have shown both. People do not get into their cars with the intention of killing people. One would hope.

Driving on the roads is a lawful activity until it is done negligently which then makes it unlawful. The standard of driving must fall in decreasing degrees of incompetence below that of the standard of a competent and prudent hypothetical driver thus giving careless, reckless or dangerous driving.

When you understand these legal concepts then feel free to continue the debate. Until such time discussion is pointless.
 

Crankarm

Guru
Location
Nr Cambridge
I am still puzzled how she could drive in a forwards direction, and hit a human being, in a 30mph area, in daylight?

And then have 'no case to answer'

Where the hell was she looking?

It goes back to my mantra: "If I cannot safely bring my vehicle to a halt in the space I can see to be clear in front of my vehicle, then I am driving TOO FAST"

Ergo, if I am driving forwards and I hit something in my lane I am at fault for not making avoidance maneuvers.

At the minimum she should be banned and have to sit an extensive re-test. Anything less is a total lack of respect for the human life her driving took away.


CP you do seem to be becoming ever more consumed by these iniquitous acts which go unpunished. Rightly so, but at this rate you will end up having a conary. Being a cyclist on the road is sh1t. Period. This is why I gave up having been knocked down twice and experiencing several near death experiences everyday. Driving every where now I am soooooooo relaxed. I realised that the constant daily battle to survive and avoid being splatted was making me a bitter person. So as I say I gave up. I look with interest on riding the guide busway as there is no chance one would hope of being knocked down. Either end I will drive as I am NOT riding on the roads.
 

400bhp

Guru
CP you do seem to be becoming ever more consumed by these iniquitous acts which go unpunished. Rightly so, but at this rate you will end up having a conary. Being a cyclist on the road is sh1t. Period. This is why I gave up having been knocked down twice and experiencing several near death experiences everyday. Driving every where now I am soooooooo relaxed. I realised that the constant daily battle to survive and avoid being splatted was making me a bitter person. So as I say I gave up. I look with interest on riding the guide busway as there is no chance one would hope of being knocked down. Either end I will drive as I am NOT riding on the roads.

Speak for yourself. Other way around for me.
 
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