Architect's fee proposals query

[swee'pea99]

I know there are architect folk out there so, a query...

We're looking to have some work done. A fairly major kitchen overhaul, with supporting walls taken out, steel frames built and the like. I was expecting a chunky bill - upwards of £50K, say.

The architects have come back talking about costs of the order of £75K, which has come as a bit of a blow. But what's also taken me aback is they're proposing to base their own fees on '2002 RIBA recommended fee scale', which, it turns out, equates to £10,875 + VAT on a project on that scale. Now, I have great respect for professionals, and expect them to charge professional fees, but £11,000 to handle a kitchen conversion, even one involving removal of a supporting wall, seems like a helluva fee to me.

Am I being unrealistic? (Oh, and even from the skimpy details provided, does £75K look a realistic building fee for a job like that? We're talking a modest terrace here, and basic materials - nothing top-spec, no solid teak made to measure kitchen. This is just for the basic building work.)

 

[Hover Fly]

I can't help but would just like to say:






'Kinelle

 

[PaulSB]

Interesting. A bit of background first. I live on a row of identical terraced cottages built around 1840, originally two up, two down plus bathroom. All cottages bar one have been renovated and extended. A good friend of mine is an architect and lives on our row. He has over the years drawn plans for all the properties.

The unrenovated property came up for sale, nothing been done in 40 years. Mr and Mrs P decided we would like to buy it, extend and modernise it and then move in. We and our architect friend obviously know the properties inside out from living in them for many years. Our renovation was to completely gut the property, re-roof, loft conversion, re-plumb, re-wire, ground floor extension, the works. Our builder gave us a fixed price of £50,000 (we added £20k to be safe on our budget) and the architect fees were £2000. My friend passed the job to another architect though one must add to this my architect friend did also pass on some existing drawings which saved us around £1000. I think our total fees would have been £3-3500 if starting from scratch + VAT

I think the costs you have suggested are on the high side.I would be looking for an independent architect and a smallish building company who will provide a fixed price.

 

[MacB]

that sounds waaaay over the top to me, the major bit of building work is the removal of a, load bearing I presume, wall and insertion of steel with appropriate anchor points and support. Having done similar a couple of years ago I can say that we did the whole lot for well under £20k and the cheapest part was the wall removal and steel support. What we had done:-

brick up archway half 2/3rds of way down long through lounge
remove supporting wall that was between other end of lounge and old kitchen putting in steelwork
deep 6 entire old kitchen
install new kitchen in family room that was beyond old kitchen
all decor, making good, some new French doors, reusing kitchen window in family room for new kitchen
moved door from new kitchen to utility room
new flooring
various plumbing and electrical work to suit

prices will vary depending on how fancy a kitchen you're going for but we paid under £1k for the removal on the wall and the purchase and fitting of the steel. Though I did get rid of/use the rubble myself so no skip and I took the old kitchen to the tip myself as well.

8 years ago we doubled the size of the upstairs by extending over the attached garage and above the then family and utility rooms. Basically increasing the upstairs to the same footprint as the downstairs. This included all building work, two new bathroom suites fitted, all decor, all carpets all electrical and all plumbing/heating, plus a new driveway, new garden fencing and existing external woodwork brought up to standard of new. Including architect fees we were a bit under £60k for this.

 

[PK99]

[quote name='swee'pea99' timestamp='1308218640' post='1710367']
I know there are architect folk out there so, a query...

We're looking to have some work done. A fairly major kitchen overhaul, with supporting walls taken out, steel frames built and the like. I was expecting a chunky bill - upwards of £50K, say.

The architects have come back talking about costs of the order of £75K, which has come as a bit of a blow. But what's also taken me aback is they're proposing to base their own fees on '2002 RIBA recommended fee scale', which, it turns out, equates to £10,875 + VAT on a project on that scale. Now, I have great respect for professionals, and expect them to charge professional fees, but £11,000 to handle a kitchen conversion, even one involving removal of a supporting wall, seems like a helluva fee to me.

Am I being unrealistic? (Oh, and even from the skimpy details provided, does £75K look a realistic building fee for a job like that? We're talking a modest terrace here, and basic materials - nothing top-spec, no solid teak made to measure kitchen. This is just for the basic building work.)
[/quote]

The architect will bee quoting for providing a full package, you can opt for different levels of service

good information here: http://www.clifton-architects.co.uk/CDA/services.html

from which:

• Full Service Cover:
• [size="-1"]This begins with investigating the feasibility of your requirements, developing design proposals and applying for statutory approvals. It includes the handling of tenders for the building work, administering the building contract, and assisting you when the building is handed over by the contractor.[/size]
• [size="-1"]Part service:[/size][size="-1"]
  Although the full service has benefits in continuity and consistent quality, the agreement can be as flexible as you wish. For example you may wish to engage an architect up to and including a Planning Application. We will apportion our fee according to the work stage reached, we do not charge for any work which has not been carried out.[/size]
• [size="-1"] [/size]

 

[accountantpete]

[quote name='swee'pea99' timestamp='1308218640' post='1710367']
I have great respect for professionals
[/quote]



I have just taken on a guy with 4 transactions a month going through his account who was charged £350 per annum by his former accountants with nice shiny offices. It took me an hour to prepare his accounts and tax return.

I have worked in The City where that mark-up rate would be laughed at.

 

[Durian]

Does that price include a full time professional chef and someone to do the laundry?

 

[Archie_tect]

SP:

1. Ignore here-say, particularly anything said about architects and how much they charge as it depends on the level of input you want, whether just planning and building regs or full service to the end of the job with certificates. A full service fee can be based on a %age of the build costs with stage payments invoiced as work proceeds. Plans only is one way to approach it if you feel confident about the builder you use.
2. Ignore anyone who gives you ad-hoc advice about how much the build work should cost unless they have seen the site and gone through in detail what you want.
However as a rule of thumb for a flat site, a good guide is to work out how big the extension is on each floor [+ add for any disruption or work in the existing house] and multiply this by £1200/ square metre. Yes, you can build cheaper but not using a reputable builder who has to make a profit to earn a living.
3. Only an architect can call him/her an architect. Plan drawers working out of their back bedroom can charge considerably less but prob are not covered by Professional Indemnity Insurance. You usually get what you pay for, but you can pay more than that if someone doesn't need or want the work.
4. Ask around and get recommendations and always take up references and visit finished jobs and talk to the owners... there are very plausible builders out there who are worse than useless.

 

[swee'pea99]

Thanks all - some very interesting input & ideas there. It is indeed a quote based on full service - and calculated at 14.5% of the builders' costs. Hence the £11K on a £75K estimate.

Thanks Archie for the rule of thumb (and the general advice, all noted and appreciated) but I can't really relate it to what we're having done - it's not 'an extension' as such. It's I would imagine a fairly common way to get a bit more internal footage in an old Victorian terrace: basically incorporate the old 'yard' bit where the outside loo was into the kitchen. This means taking out a load-bearing wall (in red), to be replaced with a thumping great RSJ, which is secured at the back wall end by fixing to another RSJ (in blue), which is itself supported at each end by vertical steels (green blobs), each of which sits on either end of another steel at ground level.

Clearly the engineering involved goes some way beyond what would be involved in 'building an extension'.

Nevertheless, the kinds of sums being talked about did surprise me.

But yes - we'll definitely look around. We've already had a few builders in, all very gung ho, but none inspired any real confidence. I think they were more the modest extension-building types rather than the 'building a massive framework out of steel' types.

We do at least have what I think is a damn fine structural engineer on the case - real old school.

Thanks again.

Oh, and no - no chef, no laundry. They do provide masseurs though, which came as a bit of a surprise.

 

[Archie_tect]

SP,
Is the red beam being inserted to support the existing outside wall above it to the first floor, and is the blue beam the new external wall so that the only new section of external wall at ground floor level is the hatched wall at the top of the drawing where the kitchen units are? If not and it's only a single storey then I don't see why the red beam is needed and then the blue beam could be simplified....

Also, if that wall is extending out is on the centre-line of you and your neighbour's garden boundary then both it and the separating wall with your neighbour on the bottom of the drawing are party walls and you will need a Party Wall Agreement with your neighbours on both sides so that your Party Wall Surveyor can record the condition of the walls [for cracks and condition] before you start to avoid any claims that you have caused any damage on your neighbour's sides as a result of the work you are doing. Also your roof can't oversail your neighbours' property [neither can gutters].

I take it the dotted line over the island is a glazed rooflight to the roof- within 1m of the boundary it may need to be fire resistant glass [Georgian wired would do it]- might also be worth checking where the extract vent over the hob goes?

 

[swee'pea99]

Hi Archie

Yes - the red beam is there to support the existing outside wall - but there's a bedroom directly above the kitchen, so the new beam is definitely required for that wall to come out. Hence the 'blue beam frame'. And yes, we will need party wall agreements on both sides - no question.

 

[Dewi]

That's a simple enough job, a good structural engineer and building surveyor is all you need, either might also be able to act as your party wall surveyor. If you really fancy an architect then ask what percentage discount on the 'RIBA recommended fee scale' as no one is getting the full amount in the current climate. Also go for a fixed fee, unless you want them rewarded for any overspend.

Check everyone has insurance and consider getting the builders to include for a non negligence insurance policy for the works in their quote just in case it all goes wrong. A good builder will have lots of happy past customers, always worth checking.

It will be hell when its happening but worth it in the end.

 

[Crackle]

We used an architect for a slightly simpler refurb, no extensions but steelwork and walls down. Very useful to know what can and can't be done. We paid a flat fee, which at the time I thought was expensive but maybe not, a thousand pound for all his advice, plans and sorting the building regs and control. The structural engineer, old school, is there any other sort I wonder, did the beam calcs and the builder we found was happy to work from their plans. He made a few advisory calls to them both, we did a lot more liason and decision making as the job went on but none of it was onerous and certainly didn't need an architect. Our Party wall agreement was a shake of the hand with the neighbour, probably not common now or advisable to others but you weigh these things up yourself don't you. He said the new beam sticking in his kitchen was handy for hanging his coat on.

 

[Archie_tect]

He said the new beam sticking in his kitchen was handy for hanging his coat on.

Most people are perfectly sensible and friendly- ours are- but when building work starts next door, sadly, some unpleasant people see it as an opportunity to get redecoration done for nothing.

SP, your extension doesn't seem too onerous, the additional space you're creating looks relatively small but the implications of it aren't. It will certainly add something special to the house, though it's always best to remember that you shouldn't spend more than the upgraded re-sale value after the work is done. Certainly the quality of life using the new room accessing the garden will be fantastic! There may be all sorts of things you and your architect have included that we don't know about so it's difficult to say- it's all about adding value and pleasure from using the new spaces created- sometimes you can't put a price on that.

 

[swee'pea99]

Thanks Archie - and others. All very good grist to the mill.