Are people confused about secondary ?

[pshore]

After reading CycleCraft (and my own experiments) I tend to ride in the left wheel track worn onto the road. My cycling buddies keep telling me that I ride really far out from the kerb in this position.

A quick google on the subject of secondary road positioning comes up with this phrase from a few sources. It is from Bikeability.

Quote from Bitesize Bikeability

The secondary road position (roughly 1 metre to the left of the traffic flow and not less than 0.5 metres to the edge of the road)

I am wondering if people are reading this information online and misinterpreting it. I think you could read that as 1 metre left of the left edge of the car, whereas I have always believed you need to be in the way of the car (ie left wheel track or further right) to get into a drivers conscious field of vision. This would be about 1 metre left of the centre of the car.

What precisely are Bikeability instructors teaching in practice ?

How far out is your secondary ?

 

[Hip Priest]

My secondary is on the right side of the grids.

 

[Alien8]

I don't position myself by a measured distance.

No wonder some people find all this talk of secondary, strong-secondary, primary and whatever-else-ary confusing.

It's about positioning yourself to enhance your safety - which in the main means positioning yourself to influence the behaviour of those around you.

There are far too many different road sizes, layouts, obstructions etc to make blanket statements about distances from kerbs.

Although I would say that I seem to ride further out than the masses - and I don't tend to get excessive grief from motorist for doing this.

 

[BentMikey]

It's not the distance from the kerb, btw, it's your position within the traffic flow. Sometimes the flow will go left or right around obstructions such as parked cars or traffic islands. Most of the time the left hand wheel track isn't too far from secondary, at least going by the average London road. A particularly wide road, and that might be too far out for secondary.

 

[Dan B]

It's not the distance from the kerb, btw, it's your position within the traffic flow.

This.

 

[ferret fur]

It's been said before:
For me primary is a blocking position. I go into primary to prevent someone overtaking. Secondary is riding in a postion which allows people to overtake safely. The distance out is variable. If it is safe for me to do so I have no problem in riding in a postion that allows cars to go past without deviating from their normal trajectory. I don't see the point in forcing people to move out if they don't need to do so. The one thing I want to avoid is being in a position which encourages a close pass. If you sit in a set distance from the kerb (or in relation to the traffic) then there is a risk that this will happen.

 

[Melonfish]

secondary is for me not in the gutter and not in the grids. its sort of inbetween the left wheel track and the curb.
i'd actually say about 50cm out from the curb so in perfic position.

 

[BentMikey]

secondary is for me not in the gutter and not in the grids. its sort of inbetween the left wheel track and the curb.
i'd actually say about 50cm out from the curb so in perfic position.

As per cyclecraft, the minimum distance from the kerb should be 60cm, so a good secondary will mostly be further out than this. The position isn't relative to the kerb though, but relative to how the traffic is flowing. Kerbs sometimes move in and out in unexpected ways that can produce a lack of anticipation in following traffic who don't pay much attention to them.

 

[mcr]

The left wheel track can often be the most eroded part of the road surface - or so it seems in this neck of the woods where many roads have been 'repaired' (ie patched) along roughly that line, which has then been the bit most subject to degradation by frost/snow... So one can't make hard-and-fast rules other than, as has been said above, it's more a question of being visible - I've noticed a marked increase in the number of cars giving me a properly wide berth while overtaking since moving out from the kerbside position.

 

[Razor08]

I teach children it is an arms length away from the kerb, so as to clear rubbish in the gutter and drains.

 

[ohnovino]

For me, secondary isn't a fixed point. It's somewhere to the left of primary, but the exact position varies depending on the road width, surface condition, presence of pedestrians, leaves in the road...

 

[pshore]

It's been said before:
For me primary is a blocking position. I go into primary to prevent someone overtaking. Secondary is riding in a postion which allows people to overtake safely. The distance out is variable. If it is safe for me to do so I have no problem in riding in a postion that allows cars to go past without deviating from their normal trajectory. I don't see the point in forcing people to move out if they don't need to do so. The one thing I want to avoid is being in a position which encourages a close pass. If you sit in a set distance from the kerb (or in relation to the traffic) then there is a risk that this will happen.

On the road I am thinking of (30mph limit but 30-40mph is typical), if I do any less than left-wheel-track in rush hour you get oncoming traffic, plus an overtaker with their right wheel either on or just over the centre line leaving me with whatever is left and we are three abreast. What's left is possibly 3-4ft from the kerb, but it is a gap I am not happy with.

Actually, the road width and where I ride is very similar to the HC163 picture (possibly my road is a tad wider):
Google StreetView link

With this riding position I am blocking cars from overtaking within my lane. It feels like a poor primary or hard secondary but in my experience gets you the most overtaking room (just like in the picture).

So, with a true secondary, would you expect a car to be able to overtake in the same lane as you ? It feels like secondary is not actually possible on a road like the one above. It is just polite (or is is that less scary) to not be in the centre of the lane.

 

[Tigerbiten]

I found from group rides, that I tend to ride a lot further out than most other riders.
So around 90% of the time, I'm in a primary position.
It only if the road is very wide that I take a secondary one.

It one of the advantages/disadvantages of riding a recumbent trike that 800 mm wide, its easy to block trafic from behind .........

 

[BentMikey]

With this riding position I am blocking cars from overtaking within my lane. It feels like a poor primary or hard secondary but in my experience gets you the most overtaking room (just like in the picture).

So, with a true secondary, would you expect a car to be able to overtake in the same lane as you ? It feels like secondary is not actually possible on a road like the one above. It is just polite (or is is that less scary) to not be in the centre of the lane.

It depends on the particular lane width. Narrow lanes, say 3m or less wide, and I take primary. Wider than 4 or 5m, and I've no problem with cars overtaking in the same lane as there's usually plenty of room. In between - that's just nasty for us cyclists to deal with, as the lane is just too wide to control with a primary, and wide enough to make drivers think we're being an arse for taking the lane.

 

[Matthames]

For me the "Secondary" position would be where the nearside wheel tracks are on a car. I cycle in this position so that drivers have to deviate their course so that they can pass me. It also helps drivers waiting at junctions to notice me.