Blind Spots

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I thought some of the constructive criticism and observation in the recent "Golf Plus cut me up!" thread was interesting and illuminating. I noticed in particular the following comment from davefb:

"I'd only add, it's a hell of an eye opener just how large an object can be in your blind spot driving, and unless you're an owl, you cannot easily look over your left shoulder to that angle.. and if your in traffic, the last thing you want to be doing is turning to look behind you.. even if there wasnt bits of the car and head rests in the way."
Apologies for quoting between threads if this transgresses some forum protocol. I think Dave makes very well a point that will have occurred to many drivers who use these pages. I do not write this to excuse every piece of dangerous or inconsiderate driving, but to make a wider point.

It is easy to be perfect on the Internet, just as everyone can descend 1mph faster than the previous poster. Nonetheless, in the real world motor vehicles have blind spots. Experienced drivers tend to know where they are and avoid them.

Non-drivers or inexperienced drivers might prefer to preach their own potential perfection and say that they'd never miss a cyclist beside them or slightly to their rear. They may be right, but it's fairly unlikely.

Drivers who miss other road users in their blind spots may not be too lazy, selfish or uninterested to have looked. They may just have been concentrating for that half-second on something else they need to be aware of.

Please do not believe (as some posters may want to) that a competent motorist will see everything to their rear or alongside them. I am not a particularly good driver, like many on our roads. But even the good ones miss things. Circumspection is less hurty than a wheel arch.

Carry on.
 

GrasB

Veteran
Location
Nr Cambridge
Due to the minimal size of rearward blind spots in cars it's rather hard for a cyclist to approach a car without being visible for a significant period. The issue is drivers tend to look down a very narrow tunnel most of the time & only use mirrors or look to the side when they are about to do something. Even when drivers do use there mirrors there seems to no recognition that if something disappears you need to work out where it went rather than just ignore it ever existed.

For me not 'seeing' someone in your rear blind spot is a bit of a cop out for bad observational skills. Road users don't 'just disappear' or 'come out of no where', they may move in out of observational shadows but in the rearward direction of a car but they can be seen for long periods.

The much bigger issue is forward facing blind spots. Due to the approach speed & angles these often can maintain an observation shadow which hides other vehicles for an entire approach. This is being made worse with steeply raked windscreens & thick A pillars seen in a number of modern car designs.

When you start talking about vehicles without rear windows the observational shadows are much larger & can hide a vehicle for significant periods or the entirety of an approach.
 

JayBear

Regular
Location
North Wales
Forward facing blindspots are a bit of a problem, but how wide are these spots? I may be being naive here, but I've never got the impression that they were big enough to loose a bike in. (Perhaps I have only driven narrow a pillard cars) And I do lean forward a bit when coming into junctions where it might be an issue.

The one that gets me upset is when people sit "on the hip" of the vehicle inside them and match speed. Many is the time that I've had some numpty on a motorbike or in a car disappear out of my rear veiw mirror and then not reappear in my side window. (As I said on the other thread, I drive a van without side windows at the back.) So they simply are not visible to any driver who only relies on their mirror to change lanes.

I nearly learned about this the hard way when I almost knocked a motorcyclist off on the approach to a slow roundabout, fortunately we were going sufficiently slowly and I saw him just in time due to him suddenly revving his flymo in protest. Since then you will see me lean all the way forward in my seat to crane my neck round the door of the van to see into the blind spot, which untill then I didn't realise was so big. Lesson learned.

Possibly a metaphor too far, but when I was learning to do a bit of sailing it was drilled into me that there is no way that another boat can have seen you untill you have a clear and unobstructed veiw of a crew members head. (In reality this isn't strictly accurate, but it puts the safety margin on the right side of crash or avoid.)
 

Beebo

Firm and Fruity
Location
Hexleybeef
The much bigger issue is forward facing blind spots. Due to the approach speed & angles these often can maintain an observation shadow which hides other vehicles for an entire approach. This is being made worse with steeply raked windscreens & thick A pillars seen in a number of modern car designs.
.
About 18 months ago I nearly hit a cyclist whilst I was driving onto a roundabout for exactly this reason.
I was moving slowly towards the roundabout looking to my right to enter it, as he was coming across my path. His progress was hidden by the thick A pillar and I just didnt see him until he was almost on my bonnet.
 

Lee_M

Guru
I drive a van without side windows at the back... they simply are not visible to any driver who only relies on their mirror to change lanes.

surely the answer then is to take a look over the shoulder - called a lifesaver by motorcyclists for a very good reason

If you can't see what you're moving into then you shouldn't be moving
 

400bhp

Guru
You need to adopt your on-road riding position sometimes to overcome these blind spots. Move out of the line and back in on r'abouts, side streets where you have seen a car approaching.
 

Matthew_T

"Young and Ex-whippet"
Bus drivers have considerably large blind spots. I have been lucky enough to actually sit in the driving seat of a bus and there are so many blind spots that cyclists and peds can hide in.
They are behind pillars, infront of the bus, behind the bus, at both sides of the bus. It is amazing how aware bus drivers have to be.
 

GrasB

Veteran
Location
Nr Cambridge
Forward facing blindspots are a bit of a problem, but how wide are these spots? I may be being naive here, but I've never got the impression that they were big enough to loose a bike in. (Perhaps I have only driven narrow a pillard cars) And I do lean forward a bit when coming into junctions where it might be an issue.
I've driven cars where a long wheelbase van can get hidden completely by the A pillar if you don't move your head & even if you do you can still lose a small MPV without moving a significant amount. I looked at a Peugeot which due to the extreme rake the A pillar & it being very thick made pulling onto anything much smaller than a motorway sized roundabout problematic & required about 18" of head movement! It took less than 5s of sitting in the drivers seat to remove that car from my purchase list.

The one that gets me upset is when people sit "on the hip" of the vehicle inside them and match speed. Many is the time that I've had some numpty on a motorbike or in a car disappear out of my rear veiw mirror and then not reappear in my side window. (As I said on the other thread, I drive a van without side windows at the back.) So they simply are not visible to any driver who only relies on their mirror to change lanes.
As I said, vehicles without rear windows have many more problems with rearward blind spots.
 

GrasB

Veteran
Location
Nr Cambridge
You need to adopt your on-road riding position sometimes to overcome these blind spots. Move out of the line and back in on r'abouts, side streets where you have seen a car approaching.
But sometimes trying to ride outside an HGV's blind spot induces other motorists to have hissy fits :banghead:
 

Amanda P

Legendary Member
Moving your head helps a lot, with thick A pillars, and the thick C pillars that are also apparently in vogue just now (somehow, windows are getting bigger but cars seem to get harder and harder to see out of, or into).

In some vans you can't see anything over either shoulder, and the window is too far away easily to stick your head out of it to see over your right shoulder: you have to rely on the mirrors. If you lean forward while looking in each mirror, your view sweeps a much wider arc - but you have to move your body and head to do this. Many drivers just sit like a sack of potatoes, apparently unable even to move their heads let alone their bodies.
 

cd365

Guru
Location
Coventry, uk
As a cyclist, motorcyclist and car driver the advice that I gave myself when I got back on a cycle after many years off was don't go up the inside of moving traffic, it is too easy to not see someone coming up the inside because the majority of car drivers do not expect it!
 

Sheepy1209

Veteran
Location
Blackpool
If a driver expects something he/she will look for it; if they don't expect anything they don't look. A skilled driver realises that they can expect anything, and looks for anything.
When it comes to true blind spots, i.e. the kind of thing drivers of large vehicles can suffer from, the most helpful thing we can do is not only keep out of the blind spot, but actively position ourselves so that the driver can see us in the mirror. Don't sit in the middle of the lane behind a bus; move to the right (or left sometimes) then the poor old driver knows where you are.

Obviously in a place like London with lots of cyclists this doesn't help so much because there'll always be somebody else, but in many places a driver will know there's a cyclist somewhere but can't be sure where.
 

cd365

Guru
Location
Coventry, uk
If a driver expects something he/she will look for it; if they don't expect anything they don't look. A skilled driver realises that they can expect anything, and looks for anything.
.

In my experience there are very few skilled drivers around! Hence why I cycle defensively and try not to put myself in a position where I am relying on their skill to spot me!
 

Melonfish

Evil Genius in training.
Location
Warrington, UK
besides a rearview mirror would not a periscope be useful in a car? i.e. mounted just above the mirror which looks to the blind spot?
i wonder if any car makers have thought of this?
 

JayBear

Regular
Location
North Wales
surely the answer then is to take a look over the shoulder - called a lifesaver by motorcyclists for a very good reason

The lifesaver look is well named by those of a motorbike persuasion, particularly as it is their own life they will be saving. (like it or not humans are self centered so car drivers who are 'safe' will never have the same instincutal self preservation need to look over their shoulders.) Is there also something called 'lifesaver positioning' which is defined by not putting yourself where a driver might not be able to see you. If you do that you are putting your safety in someone elses hands. If you can't not put yourself in such a position (i.e. If you can't get alongside their drivers window straight away), then drop back and wait for a safer opportunity. Or just join the queue.
 
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