Brompton how light can it go

[Cuchilo]

I think the post was removed but it would be about 64 steps to the fourth floor not well over 100 . Just saying

 

[berlinonaut]

I think the post was removed but it would be about 64 steps to the fourth floor not well over 100 . Just saying

Good that you know the house I am living in and that you know it better than me... It is a typical old Berlin house with rooms being 3,50m-3,70m high - which obviously has an effect on the number of stairs to climb for each floor im comparison to modern standard room heights. Depending from where you are living my 4th floor would bei the 5th floor (if you are American i.e.). Plus in the case of my house there are a bunch of stairs from street level to the ground floor. Now go and count again.

 

[berlinonaut]

Business basics

A bit of a short answer. If that's your only cause it sounds a bit oversimplified and I would not agree with that - business advanced teaches a lot of different approaches to growth-strategies and dealing with existing customers. Your's is basically the approach the American car industry invented in the 1950ies to be able to sell customers a new car each year. So a very old approach. For one, economy has developed massively since then plus constantly selling new bikes to existing customers would not be a very sustainable approach, so not really fit with Brompton's company vision. Apart from the fact that customers would need to have a better alternative to switch to to force a company to follow their wishes for not loosing them. For the wider part of the customer base this better alternative does not exist. Plus I bevlieveyou massively overestimate the relevance of the wishes of technically interested forum members for Brompton as customers.

 

[Shreds]

I have been in business many years and have a very wide knowledge of management and business development in both multimillion pound companies as well as SMEs so dont underestimate my assessments.

A significant proportion of potential buyers are deterred by the weight of the bike.

I am not alone in disagreeing with some Brompton policies. I believe Andrew Ritchie came to blows at some point too.

I will end this discussion here as I have better things to do.

 

[Cuchilo]

Good that you know the house I am living in and that you know it better than me... It is a typical old Berlin house with rooms being 3,50m-3,70m high - which obviously has an effect on the number of stairs to climb for each floor im comparison to modern standard room heights. Depending from where you are living my 4th floor would bei the 5th floor (if you are American i.e.). Plus in the case of my house there are a bunch of stairs from street level to the ground floor. Now go and count again.

I took the period property into account when doing my calculations and yes i do know you house better than you even though ive never seen it and its in a different country .
Now you have added a basement so i think you can add another 10 from street level making 74 steps .
4th floor to 5th floor in other countries is just silly .

 

[rogerzilla]

Brompton have specifically profited from the C2W scheme. They wouldn't sell half as many bikes at £1000 if people had to pay real money for them. A higher-rate taxpayer can actually make a profit by buying a new Brompton as frequently as the scheme allows and selling the last one.

 

[berlinonaut]

yes i do know you house better than you even though ive never seen it and its in a different country .

That is amazing!

 

[berlinonaut]

Brompton have specifically profited from the C2W scheme. They wouldn't sell half as many bikes at £1000 if people had to pay real money for them. A higher-rate taxpayer can actually make a profit by buying a new Brompton as frequently as the scheme allows and selling the last one.

This is probably true - but on the other hand: Brompton would be stupid not trying to take a benefit from that. I cannot see where Brompton's fault would be or why they are the root of all evil. And I definitively cannot understand where you hate on Brompton comes from. The whole idea behind c2w is to bring more people on bikes, for many good reasons. C2W enables this, the taxpayer pays for it indirectly and Brompton (as one manufacturer of many) as well as the buyer profits from it. Plus less solvent buyers profit, too, as the number of young, used Bromptons on the market rises and so they can get their hands on one. Where is your problem?

I do not know about the situation in the UK - in Germany we do have a similar program and basically it replicates the rules for company cars that have existed already for decades. I'd assume BMW, Mercedes and a lot of other brands would sell way less cars w/o those rules. So the bike schemes create at least equal treatment instead of punishing bike riders in comparison to car owners.
Regarding the "making a profit"-part: According to https://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/calculator savings for a 1000€ Brompton (or any other bike) are as follows (assumed salary of £60.000, I guess this ranks as "higher salary"):

£1000/1 year saves you £170, you pay £830 in real money and you have to sell your one year old Brompton for more to make a profit
£1000/4 years saves you £350, you pay £650 in real money and you have to sell your four year old Brompton for more to make a profit
£1500/1 year saves you £255, you pay £1245 in real money and you have to sell your one year old Brompton for more to make a profit
£1500/4 years saves you £525, you pay £975 in real money and you have to sell your four year old Brompton for more to make a profit

While it may be possible to make a profit with selling the used bike I'd assume I'd be a pretty small one (apart from the current special market situation at Corona conditions). A two digit profit if you are lucky, I'd guess. At max, rather a blank nil. I would assume no one with a 60k income would go through c2w for the one reason to gain £20-£50. Or did I get something wrong?

So you are basically complaining that people are willing to pay too much for a used Brompton in your opinion (more than for another used bike) and accuse Brompton for that. Basically you accuse Brompton for being liked by customers which is especially funny as in this thread people wrote Brompton would ignore their customers (and thus basically would or should be out of business longer term). At least you should decide for one of the two arguments - using both at the same time seems a bit unplausible to me.

 

[mitchibob]

Dunno how many times I've had to explain the same to people... thanks for giving me something to link to!

 

[rogerzilla]

Used Bromptons sell for around their original purchase price if marketed on eBay with a postage option. A 2018 M3L goes for about £750 to £800 even with pickup only, and the new price was around £830 (Evans). This isn't because they don't wear out, it's because of the escalating price of a new one.

As they get older, they can sell for a premium over the original RRP. A 2009 (yes, 2009) M3L went for £950 recently. It was £550 when new.

 

[berlinonaut]

We had this discussion recently, so no need to go down the same route again. You cannot travel back eleven years in time (or even just two years) to buy a new Brompton for £550 plus even back then it was an offer price. If you want a Brompton now you have to pay what they cost today, new or used. And the prices of used bikes are decided by what people are willing to pay for them which is closely related to what people consider them to be worth and what value they see in them. So obviously people value them a lot - you may see a lower value and consider people to be idiots and yourself to be the only clever man in town and this may be true or not. I still do not get why you accuse Brompton for that.

Regarding the pricing: You can consider yourself lucky in the uk - in Germany a M3L did cost 839€ in 2009 and 1322€ in 2018 according to old price lists. They definitively are more expensive over here (still people buy them) but not as excessively as you claim. Btw: In 1987 a L3 did cost £209 in the UK and in 1997 a L3 did cost £391, according to contemporary price lists. Why don't you demand these prices today? If you prefer to live in the past and use bargain prices as the relevant reference this is your free choice. The disadvantage is that it seems to make you grumpy and unhappy due to unrealistic expectations. I guess you did have a pay raise since 1987 and also one since 1997, 2009 and maybe also since 2018. Brompton employees did possibly, too. Plus there's a thing called "inflation".

Get me right: I too think that a lot of people do pay way too much for an old clunker Brompton. Often because they don't realize the age and don't realize the differences between older and newer models. I therefor even wrote an extensive buyer's guide for used Bromptons, already back in 2014. But I would not accuse Brompton for that fact because I consider this a very strange approach plus - in opposite to you - I do see massive developments in between different model years, something you deny as you say no development has happened.

 

[rogerzilla]

I own a Brompton (a very nice 21lb titanium one, for what it's worth) but I am painfully aware of its flaws and poor value for money. My point is that secondhand ones are only so expensive because new ones keep escalating in price, way beyond normal inflation, and the C2W scheme has largely facilitated this. The price of a basic M3L or S3L rose to the old £1000 limit of most schemes. This may be a coincidence but I doubt it. It's good business for Brompton Bicycle but not for buyers. They are pretty good at squashing the competition through legal action to maintain their position. Were this not the case, the Taiwanese would have copied the basic fold - now only protected by dubious copyright of the look, rather than a technical patent - and left them far behind. Why are they still using a hi-ten steel frame after all these years? Or components more befitting a £200 bike rather than a £1000 one? Because there's no competition.

 

[u_i]

I am painfully aware of its flaws and poor value for money.

Well, different owners can have different opinions. I cannot count how many bikes I have - presumably somewhere in the vicinity of 15 and there many more in the past. None has been as coherent, well rounded and ready for use right away as Brompton and none represented comparably good value for money.

 

[Gunk]

I've said before, if I only had to keep one bike it would be my Brompton.

 

[FrankCrank]

Think I posted this on another thread, but here you go:
https://www.lazada.co.th/products/l...4m.searchlist.list.49.240a4030zQBv77&search=1
Ally frame and 3-speed SA hub. Not sure how it compares to a Brommie, but at less than 150 beer tokens, free delivery and COD, it does look a good deal. Lazada is a local version of Amazon by the way. Anyways, food for thought eh