Canti brakes for commuters

[smiorgan]

Hi all

Normally I'd post this in Know How but I'm looking for anecdotal experiences of canti brakes in commuting situations. I may want to replace the v-brakes on my crosscheck with cantis simply so I can use some old ergolevers.

Full disclosure: my previous experience of cantis - Frogglegs - was not great. They were OK and nothing more with a low straddle and pads set in as far as they would go on the posts (I set them up badly and then went out for a test ride... whatever doesn't kill you etc.). This was on a Pompino which I rode fixed. They needed a powerful grip to brake from the hoods. Tekro road levers.

I've read Sheldon and Benno Belhumeur's paper on cantilever mechanical advantage, and lots of conflicting opinions ("oryx are great" "you want some CR720's" "oryx are rubbish" "you just need to set them up right" etc). The paper shows the reason why I might have been less than impressed with the Frogglegs, and suggests that low profile is the way to go for road applications (higher MA than wide profile, with pads set close).

The question is this:

Have you used low or wide profile cantilevers in traffic, and do they stop well enough for urban commuting? How do they do for planned braking vs emergency braking?

PS MAITOY here: http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/
Follow the link to the paper I mentioned

 

[mcshroom]

I commute daily with oryx cantis and I don't have any problems with them at all. They don't brake as well as disks or well set up v-brakes but they stop you well enough and have reasonable modulation. They also take v-brake style pads so are easier to adjust than the post type.

Cartridge pads and holders did seem to make a difference over the OEM blocks supplied (the OEM ones are crap).


I also use the bike for touring and have only chickened out of a couple 1:5 twisty descents (but I think thst is more my lack of bottle than the fault of the brakes

)

 

[MacB]

I've only tried one set, the Tektro CR520 and they were fine once setup and not particularly hard to set up either, but I do find v's easier to work with. I think they're perfectly adequate for commuting purposes unless you have a commute that has a lot of long, steep, downhills. If you want to use STI/Ergo then I would prefer cantis to using a Travel Agent on v-brakes, I've tried both. But you do see a lot of LHTs, or Crosschecks, using Tektro/Cane Creek drop bar v-brake levers coupled with bar end shifters. This was my preferred solution though I had the bar ends shifters in the bar ends. If you use 26mm clamp bars then you can buy Pauls Thumbies to mount the shifters on the flats or Kellys Takeoffs to mount them to the side of the hoods.

I ended up resolving my issues by changing to frames with disc brake mounts and using Avid BB7 road mechanical disc brakes. It opened up more potential for me, allowing the addition of crosstop levers and doesn't wear away my rims. It's strange I spoke to Surly about disc brakes and they had no intention of aiming for them for the likes of the LHT or Crosscheck. Then when I was researching buying the Salsa Vaya frame I discovered that Salsa and Surly are part of the same company and the frames are made in the same place.

If you have the ergos already then a set of CR520s don't cost a lot and it's got to be worth giving it a try. An even cheaper option could be a set of mini v-brakes, some of the German online bike shops do them very cheap. I've seen mixed reviews and claims that they're a pain as they have to be run very close, but you could try them, inc new cable inners, for about £20 all in.

 

[snailracer]

The main disadvantage I find with cantis is that I use the brakes a lot when commuting, and often in the rain. This wears out brake blocks quickly, and cantis require constant, fiddly adjustment to maintain consistent braking. With V's, you just give the barrel adjuster a twist now and then and that's it.

The main advantage of cantis is that you can set up each brake to have the mechanical advantage you want, but this is only useful if you're very fussy, very clumsy or have other peculiar requirements.

 

[Nigeyy]

I use cantis on my commuter bike. Alas, they are Nashbar brand (not sold in the UK) but are, in my opinion, excellent. They have the perfrect balance of power and modulation.

However, not everyone is happy with them, so here are some things I find (for me at least guarantee success):

1. yes, setup is critical as it is with any other brake. Make sure your rims are straight so you can position your pad as close as is practically possible. Personally, I was initially put off cantis because of the original design where toeing in your pads required 5 hands -the new designs with the threaded post make adjustment as easy as linear pull brakes now. Also, some people swear by using adjustable hangers -I must be lucky because I've only ever used the standard Shimano brake hangers with no complaints at all. I tend to believe that this is more than likely negated given my point 4. below.
2. Maintenance -make sure your rims are clean(ish) and that your pads are clean too. Check to make sure you have the best possible cable run.
3. I'm sure there are similar pads out there, but for me Koolstop Salmons are a must. *Every* rim brake I own has these. The best brake update for the money in my opinion.
4. This was is a hard one -but the right levers. Unfortunately, levers aren't usually sold speccing their cable pull -I wish they were. I find a longish cable pull works best for me (note: I found Shimano STI levers have shorter pulls than Cane Creek levers for example). When I say longish, I am referring to relative to all short pull levers, not confusing the long pull of linear brakes here.

I was lucky; I found some old, old mtb levers in a local shop that have full length levers (not short levers like most styles now) that I prefer -that and the fact they have just that bit more cable pull than most other short pull levers makes them perfect for my brake setup. It sounds like you have the levers already though.

I personally find that all things equal, and assuming good quality brakes, I prefer canti brakes to linear pull brakes due to their better modulation. Linear pull brakes always seem to be too digital for my liking.

 

[fatblokish]

I have been led to believe that the position of the braze-on bosses for V's is different to that of cantis. Some may agree with this, whilst others may not.

I have v brakes on my commuter, including the travel agent http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...29GB329&biw=1259&bih=800&tbm=isch&um=1&itbs=1
that works really well with my set up.

Cannot compare the v's to cantis(as I have never used the latter), but they are much more powerful and easily adjusted than my calipers...


ps, how do I shorten the hyperlink?

 

[Pubert]

ps, how do I shorten the hyperlink?

Use this little button

in the reply editor, so your link could end up like this

 

[John the Monkey]

I have a Surly Long Haul Trucker, with Tiagra STi road levers, wheels are home built Mavic A319.

I used Tektro CR-720 at first.

Tektro pads are crap, junk them and get kool-stops or Fibrax Extreme.

For me, the CR-720 never quite had enough power - they do have plenty of clearance, and they're very tolerant in terms of setup (being slightly out won't hugely affect the efficiency of the brake). Never noticed the lack of power in the dry, but they could be a bit hair raising in the wet.

I switched to Oryx at the start of the year. The key to these is to junk the included link wire, and use a traditional straddle cable. While you're at it, put an inline adjuster on your brake cable. Set the straddle *fairly* low - too low and your levers will bottom out before the brake bites, too high and you won't have enough power.

It's a bit finicky, and you won't have anything like the clearance you get on wide profile cantis - an inflated tyre *will not* go past mine. They'll drift out of adjustment right quick too - an inline adjuster will save you a lot of tweaking here. What you gain is a much more powerful brake - ime.

 

[Nigeyy]

Well count me as one who doesn't believe that's the case. I've had both older bikes and more modern ones and swapped linear pull and canti brakes around on them with similar results. And I can't see any difference in the brake boss positions.

Given this -and the lack of evidence -I can't imagine that a large factory in Taiwan is going to rejig at some cost to themselves -it doesn't make sense. From my experience there's just no difference.

Course, that doesn't mean to say I'm right.... Maybe some boutique frame maker did it as a selling point? Either way, I've never had any problems changing canti/linear brakes on bikes that were originally designed for canti/linear brakes.

I have been led to believe that the position of the braze-on bosses for V's is different to that of cantis. Some may agree with this, whilst others may not.

 

[asterix]

I've also swapped Vs for cantis with no problem re boss locations.

Vs didn't work with drop bars and the travel agents didn't solve the problem.

My commuter and tourer has Avid's (cantis) with Massi blocks. Before I got the Massi blocks they had to be carefully adjusted to avoid squeal. I bought the Massi's from a bike shop in the Pyrennees halfway through a camping tour and they transformed the Avids.

Whilst commuting with cantis I have perfomed one or two outstanding emergency stops. In one I was able to bring up the front wheel within an inch or two of the driver's door for dramatic effect such was their fine modulation! In the wet, too. SMIDSY, of course.

 

[frank9755]

They're fine. Like all brakes they need to be properly adjusted

 

[PpPete]

I was able to bring up the front wheel within an inch or two of the driver's door for dramatic effect such was their fine modulation! In the wet, too. SMIDSY, of course.

Done this with cantis too.
However I do have one problem since I swapped from Sora levers to Veloce Ergos in that the rear is now almost too powerful, and it's easier to lock the rear wheel now. I guess the Campag brake levers have just a little more pull (as well as the different cable pull of the gears)

 

[Nigeyy]

I read that paper with interest. It seems pretty thorough with some interesting results. Got to be honest, I never realized how adjustable the MA was with cantis -and that my setup may be more an act of good fortune that intentional design -e.g. my hanger height just happens to be perfect for my brakes and levers. From just thinking about it, I always assumed that the lower hanger height would give greater MA, didn't realize that it may not with certain brakes.

However, 2 things from that article I question:

i. no mention of the brake levers used (now admittedly it is only dealing with the MA of brakes, so I understand that)
ii. I believe the article is coming from a very theoretical point of view; it assumes no cable stretch. I have to think this would change things in real life. For example, with a lower hanger height with very wide profile arms I have to wonder if that would be less efficient at transferring cable pull. Think how easy it is to pull a guitar string up on a guitar -then think how hard it would be to hold each ends of the guitar string and pull the same distance.

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

PS MAITOY here: http://www.circleacy...om/cantilevers/
Follow the link to the paper I mentioned

 

[smiorgan]

Thanks all for the replies on yr experiences and the advice on the in-line adjusters. And for the record I am a Kool-Stop Salmon convert too.

i. no mention of the brake levers used (now admittedly it is only dealing with the MA of brakes, so I understand that)
ii. I believe the article is coming from a very theoretical point of view; it assumes no cable stretch. I have to think this would change things in real life. For example, with a lower hanger height with very wide profile arms I have to wonder if that would be less efficient at transferring cable pull. Think how easy it is to pull a guitar string up on a guitar -then think how hard it would be to hold each ends of the guitar string and pull the same distance.

Re. ii, that effect is exactly the reason why you can get more MA by lowering the straddle height, although too low and you run out of lever travel. Not cable stretch though, the cable is still moving when you pull from the middle (unless you're pulling at the end of the brake travel in which case deformation will happen)

Cable stretch will be an issue and if you compensate by just taking up the slack at the lever end you will end up raising the yoke height and decreasing MA. This may not be the case with a link wire if the main cable runs freely through the linkage - but I've never used these, only the straddle.

 

[upsidedown]

I binned the Oryx Cantis on my LHT earler this year and replaced them with Vs. I found that when the pads became well worn the straddle wire would pop out of it's retainer leaving the brakes disconnected. Feel much safer with the Vs.