Car pulls out on me and I'm to blame?

[tightwad]

New to the forum so please accept my apologies if this is asking too much so soon.

I need a bit of advice please.

Last week I was cycling home, along a wide road with plenty of room to cycle past cars on their nearside. Coming up to a left junction a minibus was waiting to turn right. As I got closer to the junction I was undertaking a car which was closest to the junction. The driver flashed to the minibus indicating he was stopping to allow him to pull out and turn right. The minibus didn't see me and pulled out in front of me and I went into the drivers door, denting it and writing off the front end of my bike.
The driver initially claimed it was the driver who flashed fault . ( The flashing driver drove off) As he, and four of his mates started to be aggresive towards me, I called the police. Things calmed down a bit and he agreed to pay for the damage.

When the police came they were very anti bike and one of them stated that it was 6 of one half a dozen of the other. He was wrong to pull out and I was wrong to be undertaking. I reckon that's bollocks. Anyway after the police said that he decided to retract his offer to pay for the damage and said he would go through his insurance, he then also at this point said one of the passengers in the bus was complaining of neck pain.

Are the police right, will I have to share the blame? Is there a place I can find an answer to this?

 

[thomas]

Are the police right, will I have to share the blame? Is there a place I can find an answer to this?

Phone the CTC legal cover line. I don't think you need to be a member...though if you were you'd of received third party insurance

As for what happened it sounds like the mini van driver's fault. When I was learning to drive I was taught not to flash people out because of people wouldn't check the junction is clear, go for it, and blame me if they hit someone.

I don't really know why the Police were like that. IMO, cycles can undertake/overtake and when pulling out of a side junction you only do it when it is clear and safe.

 

[PBancroft]

join the CTC - they have a legal advice service who will be able to give you the information you need.

 

[lit]

Imo I don't think you are, the whole flashing a driver across has no legal standing as far as I'm aware.

 

[thomas]

Imo I don't think you are, the whole flashing a driver across has no legal standing as far as I'm aware.

Technically a driver flashing means they are warning someone else, in a similar way to how you would use a horn. (or at least that's what the highway code wants people to do)

So, the driver who flashed was "warning" the mini van of your presence...then the mini van still pulled out into you.

 

[semislickstick]

That's a well worded description, with equal blame across the board.

Everyone going through junctions should be very careful overtaking or 'undertaking' especially cyclists/motorcyclists as your visibility is partially blocked plus your view of the road.
Flashing lights - is to warn of your presence not to allow someone in or out.
Being flashed doesn't mean it clear or safe to pull out.

 

[tightwad]

The relevant part of the highway code states:
Road junctions

72

On the left. When approaching a junction on the left, watch out for vehicles turning in front of you, out of or into the side road. Just before you turn, check for undertaking cyclists or motorcyclists. Do not ride on the inside of vehicles signalling or slowing down to turn left.

As the car I undertook was going straight on it would appear that I was not contravening the code and legally I should have no blame? That said I understand the need to exercise caution at junctions although in this case the driver should have seen me. I have a Hope Vision 1 light on the front which was on its highest setting putting out 240 lumens

 

[SavageHoutkop]

edit: just seen you replied to another post while I was typing with sect 72 & answering the light question!

Now, I'm not a lawyer but I've been reading these forums for a while.

If I've got it right; flashing doesn't give someone the right to move, and you shouldn't believe a flash without checking it's safe. (i.e. minibus driver should have checked & not believed the flash).

Secondly, I've had a quick rummage in the Highway Code and I found this:
Road junctions

72

On the left. When approaching a junction on the left, watch out for vehicles turning in front of you, out of or into the side road. Just before you turn, check for undertaking cyclists or motorcyclists. Do not ride on the inside of vehicles signalling or slowing down to turn left.


Now this is not one of those 'must, must not' things, but the way I read this is that you shouldn't (but it's not illegal to) ride up the inside of cars that are turning left; so by omission it should be possible to ride up the inside of cars that aren't turning left (so long as, of course, you're not going to be flattened if they do suddenly left-hook you!). Nice to know they should check for you before they turn though....



However, if it was dark (you don't say); and your bike wasn't road legal with lights/reflectors etc there could be an argument to say he couldn't see you as you weren't legal.

 

[tightwad]

edit: just seen you replied to another post while I was typing with sect 72 & answering the light question!

Now, I'm not a lawyer but I've been reading these forums for a while.

If I've got it right; flashing doesn't give someone the right to move, and you shouldn't believe a flash without checking it's safe. (i.e. minibus driver should have checked & not believed the flash).

Secondly, I've had a quick rummage in the Highway Code and I found this:
Road junctions

72

On the left. When approaching a junction on the left, watch out for vehicles turning in front of you, out of or into the side road. Just before you turn, check for undertaking cyclists or motorcyclists. Do not ride on the inside of vehicles signalling or slowing down to turn left.


Now this is not one of those 'must, must not' things, but the way I read this is that you shouldn't (but it's not illegal to) ride up the inside of cars that are turning left; so by omission it should be possible to ride up the inside of cars that aren't turning left (so long as, of course, you're not going to be flattened if they do suddenly left-hook you!). Nice to know they should check for you before they turn though....



However, if it was dark (you don't say); and your bike wasn't road legal with lights/reflectors etc there could be an argument to say he couldn't see you as you weren't legal.

It wasn't dark but the sun was setting 3.55 pm, and I'd had my lights since leaving work 20 minutes earlier.

 

[Ivan Ardon]

Strange wording on that sect 72 passage, referring to motorcyclists. If it had been a motorcycle in your position, I'd have expected him to be largely responsible for the accident. (I've been a motorcyclist for 25 years)

Does being on a bicycle reduce that responsibility? I think the best you could hope for is 50/50.

I'm glad you're not hurt though.

 

[tightwad]

Strange wording on that sect 72 passage, referring to motorcyclists. If it had been a motorcycle in your position, I'd have expected him to be largely responsible for the accident. (I've been a motorcyclist for 25 years)

Does being on a bicycle reduce that responsibility? I think the best you could hope for is 50/50.

I'm glad you're not hurt though.

I also ride a motorbike and used to be a despatch rider in London during the early years when it was truly mental, carrying up to 10 jobs on at a time. I remember riding down one of the busier roads in the west end. Filtering between a stopped bus and the pavement, as I was passing the exit door the driver decided to open the doors ( not at a bus stop). A woman stepped out and ended up on the back of my bike for a few yards. Damn funny and she saw the funny side as she was shocked but not hurt.

Cycles undertake as that is where we are expected to ride and so I think it should reduce the responsibility although I just don't know hence my thread on here.

 

[PatrickPending]

said he would go through his insurance, he then also at this point said one of the passengers in the bus was complaining of neck pain.

passenger complaining of neck pain good grief!!

 

[Will1985]

He was wrong to pull out and I was wrong to be undertaking. I reckon that's bollocks.

I reckon the police were correct. As stated by others, the driver has a responsibility to look themselves, even having been flashed to be let in; while cyclists should not undertake lines of stationary traffic, especially coming up to a junction.

What speed were you doing? That you hit the door and not the front wing suggests that you were behind the flashing car when the minibus started to pull out, or were not attentive to the fact that a vehicle in the main queue was not moving with a potential hazard waiting in a side road.

 

[Alien8]

Get legal advice (CTC already mentioned and I can personally recommend Alyson France & Co http://www.bikeline.co.uk/).

No doubt the other party will try to apportion part of the blame for the accident on you but I would have thought from your descriptions things will be weighted in your favour - but I'm no solicitor so what do I know.

This does highlight yet again why undertaking is a dangerous game.

Good luck and don't let the b%$£ards grind you down.

 

[tightwad]

I reckon the police were correct. As stated by others, the driver has a responsibility to look themselves, even having been flashed to be let in; while cyclists should not undertake lines of stationary traffic, especially coming up to a junction.

What speed were you doing? That you hit the door and not the front wing suggests that you were behind the flashing car when the minibus started to pull out, or were not attentive to the fact that a vehicle in the main queue was not moving with a potential hazard waiting in a side road.

It's a minibus so it has a short front end and my elbow hit the part of the door closest to the front. I also swerved at the last moment ot try and go round the front. About 12 mph.
I was aware of the potential hazard as I have been riding for 35 years daily but I can not assume every car driver at junctions can't see me.