Charly Wegelius

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Pro Tour Punditry

Pro Tour Punditry

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What's everyone's thoughts on him re doping? I have always had a soft spot for him as he was for a long while one of a very small number of Brits in the peloton, so I decided to buy his autobiography and have a read.

A lot of what he writes seems to gloss over and ignore the fact that a lot of his team mates doped, and he speaks highly of most of them and offers up "I never saw them doing anything". And then there's a bit about his "naturally high" levels, and how he fought to keep them low - he still went altitude training with his team, including Di Luca in Mexico - but the stuff he says he had to do does not seem to make any sense to me. And then he says it was degrading to have to provide tests.

My soft spot for him does not seem as soft anymore. But I want to think he did it clean. Wish I had not bought the book now, haha.
 
O

oldroadman

Veteran
Location
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Some people have naturally high heamatocrit levels. The UCI sdet a limit of 50 as an arbirtary figure when they did not have a reliable EPO test. They do now, and can detect transfusion - even of your own blood stored and re-infused - by blood sample. Even at a way past proper competition age, my last blod test showed a level of 47, just 3 under the UCI "health limit". If blood counts had happened in the past when Iw as competing, it's possible I would have been one of the people "rested" for two weeks due to exceeding the 50 limit.
What you have to remember is that quite a few riders will have natural counts as high as 53 or more, and it does not prove EPO usage. After altitude training the count will increase for a while. In the case of Charly, I would give him the benefit of the doubt on blood levels, he always was an outstanding rider as an amateur and had the potential to progress to the top, which he proved. As for submitting to tests being degrading, well testing goes with the job, although in early days and in some countries the testing can be less professional than others and you could wonder about sample security.
I just wish he wasn't so downbeat in the book though!
 
R

resal

Veteran
You need to think to yourself about all that's happened in the last 15 years in Cycling.

There is not one chance in 1,000 that Wegelius was clean and his book is exactly what you would expect from a non-reformed doper. After the kick out in 2005, Millar could still sell out his ride at the World's the following year under the noses of the dull management at BC. Just who are the type of people who sell out like Wegelius and Millar? It is not guys like you who live your life and take pride in a community to which you belong. It is a whole network of riders and coaches (ex riders) who just have no effective code of ethics.

But don't expect the truth from any of these guys too soon. The problem with outing these guys is that its not them, it's the dominoes much further down the chain.

If you take it as read that Wegelius is lying, you look at the guys around him and his peers. You join dots and have to continue the connectives until you reach a firewall. What does a firewall look like ? Well they are a loner and not part of the system. There are not too many of those around team GB.

The system is BC and Sky, which could be very good and could be very bad, depending on how you are disposed. Then you look at things like Sir Dave Brailsford thinking that using Sciandri to develop the U23 men's squad had one drop of sanity, and that he did this after being taken in for questioning after dining out with Millar and your jaw drops. That sort of logic employs Leinders and Yates when any sort of ear on the ground screams out "steer clear".

So undoubtedly there will be many who will come to Charlie's aid. They have a vested interest, not so much in Charlie but more in making sure that the domino they don't want to fall, doesn't. What we have right now is something more akin to religion than sport. Who is going to get exposed ? Well I think the history of the efficacy of the testing regimen indicates to us that "very few" is the likely number. So, I don't think I will see many converts joining me anytime soon. That yellow band must have added years and immense amounts of public inertia to the pro-Lance camp, survival history. Indeed he had toggled to "invulnerable dope cheat" via his manipulation of idiots' brains. It took a spectacular series of wrong decisions on his part to bring himself down. I don't think we are going to see a replication of his failure anytime soon. "quit whilst you are ahead" sees many a criminal and bent copper living a life of luxury in Spain, well out of reach of the honest, working class citizen. Wasn't it Cav's brother who went to prison for importing drugs for resale in the Isle of Man? Certainly not his brother's keeper. Cav - mentored by our king of the selective memory, ex East German - Zabel. No, I don't expect many dominoes to fall. A whole pile of people have looked at Lance and have they have taken the lessons to heart.

Oldroadman you have told us this intriguing story before about your very high haematocrit. We never did find out how your local hospital came to test you. Not any of our friends in Manchester doing the test was it ? a "drop in" test session at the velodrome with BC doctor Roger Palfreeman ? Test results courtesy of the Royal Liverpool Hospital ?
 
O

oldroadman

Veteran
Location
Ubique
resal said:
You need to think to yourself about all that's happened in the last 15 years in Cycling.

There is not one chance in 1,000 that Wegelius was clean and his book is exactly what you would expect from a non-reformed doper. After the kick out in 2005, Millar could still sell out his ride at the World's the following year under the noses of the dull management at BC. Just who are the type of people who sell out like Wegelius and Millar? It is not guys like you who live your life and take pride in a community to which you belong. It is a whole network of riders and coaches (ex riders) who just have no effective code of ethics.

But don't expect the truth from any of these guys too soon. The problem with outing these guys is that its not them, it's the dominoes much further down the chain.

If you take it as read that Wegelius is lying, you look at the guys around him and his peers. You join dots and have to continue the connectives until you reach a firewall. What does a firewall look like ? Well they are a loner and not part of the system. There are not too many of those around team GB.

The system is BC and Sky, which could be very good and could be very bad, depending on how you are disposed. Then you look at things like Sir Dave Brailsford thinking that using Sciandri to develop the U23 men's squad had one drop of sanity, and that he did this after being taken in for questioning after dining out with Millar and your jaw drops. That sort of logic employs Leinders and Yates when any sort of ear on the ground screams out "steer clear".

So undoubtedly there will be many who will come to Charlie's aid. They have a vested interest, not so much in Charlie but more in making sure that the domino they don't want to fall, doesn't. What we have right now is something more akin to religion than sport. Who is going to get exposed ? Well I think the history of the efficacy of the testing regimen indicates to us that "very few" is the likely number. So, I don't think I will see many converts joining me anytime soon. That yellow band must have added years and immense amounts of public inertia to the pro-Lance camp, survival history. Indeed he had toggled to "invulnerable dope cheat" via his manipulation of idiots' brains. It took a spectacular series of wrong decisions on his part to bring himself down. I don't think we are going to see a replication of his failure anytime soon. "quit whilst you are ahead" sees many a criminal and bent copper living a life of luxury in Spain, well out of reach of the honest, working class citizen. Wasn't it Cav's brother who went to prison for importing drugs for resale in the Isle of Man? Certainly not his brother's keeper. Cav - mentored by our king of the selective memory, ex East German - Zabel. No, I don't expect many dominoes to fall. A whole pile of people have looked at Lance and have they have taken the lessons to heart.

Oldroadman you have told us this intriguing story before about your very high haematocrit. We never did find out how your local hospital came to test you. Not any of our friends in Manchester doing the test was it ? a "drop in" test session at the velodrome with BC doctor Roger Palfreeman ? Test results courtesy of the Royal Liverpool Hospital ?
Click to expand...

That was because it was not the hospital, but my local GP in a routine investigation about another issue.
Just to comfort anyone, it was not anywhere near Manchester because I don't live in that part of the country.
It happens as you get older, doctors seem to get more interested in you, especially if your resting pulse is low and BP is good, with a history of competing in sport followed by years of just occasional pootling about without any real efforts. It seems the effects of an athletic focussed past carry into later life, for which I'm grateful.
It keeps me on the "glass half full" side of the equation!:smile:
 
R

resal

Veteran
oldroadman said:
That was because it was not the hospital, but my local GP in a routine investigation about another issue.
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Great. Amazing what the excellent National Health do when there is a bit of personal interest. GP testing your heamatocrit by way of a routine investigation into something unrelated. I bet you were pleased to find out it was ok. Other good NHS folk were always doing similar favours for certain GB riders. One rider I know was in an interview with Peter Keen and Keen had to go out of the room. The rider had a look at the form on the desk in front of him. A load of GB riders were listed together with data for growth hormone values. It was from the Royal Liverpool Hospital. The rider was on the Plan at the time and never had HGH tests done before or afterwards. The rider left it a few weeks and then brought it up with Keen. Peter indicated that it was just a favour the hospital did for a small group of riders. Apparently they did it because they were interested.
 
O

oldroadman

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resal said:
Great. Amazing what the excellent National Health do when there is a bit of personal interest. GP testing your heamatocrit by way of a routine investigation into something unrelated. I bet you were pleased to find out it was ok. Other good NHS folk were always doing similar favours for certain GB riders. One rider I know was in an interview with Peter Keen and Keen had to go out of the room. The rider had a look at the form on the desk in front of him. A load of GB riders were listed together with data for growth hormone values. It was from the Royal Liverpool Hospital. The rider was on the Plan at the time and never had HGH tests done before or afterwards. The rider left it a few weeks and then brought it up with Keen. Peter indicated that it was just a favour the hospital did for a small group of riders. Apparently they did it because they were interested.
Click to expand...
The heamatocrit was just one of a whole list of parameters tested for in a blood test session where the nice lady with the syringe took about 5 or 6 vials out of my arm - I was beginning to feel like Tony Hancock in the blood donor! That and a brain scan later. result, plenty of blood but not sure about the brain...^_^
 
R

resal

Veteran
oldroadman said:
The heamatocrit was just one of a whole list of parameters tested for in a blood test session where the nice lady with the syringe took about 5 or 6 vials out of my arm - I was beginning to feel like Tony Hancock in the blood donor! That and a brain scan later. result, plenty of blood but not sure about the brain...^_^
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I need to move GP. My local does not run to such things as a brain scanning machine. Hope you have an "all clear".
 
Booyaa

Booyaa

Veteran
Location
South Staffordshire
resal, do you have a problem with oldroadman? You come across as very bitter.
 
R

resal

Veteran
Booyaa said:
resal, do you have a problem with oldroadman? You come across as very bitter.
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I lost a lot of lifelong cycling friends over 10 years ago. They loved the sweepstake on top 10 places in the Worlds, Tours and classics. I was "bitter". None went as far as buying the yellow band but I certainly heard many an account of how great Vino, Pantani and Ulrich were along with others before and since. They carried on, I walked in a different direction.

I am sorry I don't sing the same happy tune so many want to hear.

I certainly have a negative view on those at the top of our sport. The administrators who have sat on their hands for many years pretending not to see or hear anything. Their silence and lack of desire to "look" has enabled the cheats to flourish.

OK so we have had all the Yates, Leinders and de Jong, talk. Let's cast our eyes somewhere no one has looked before.

Take a guy like shown in the twitter feed below. Just the latest twitter feed tells you everything you need to fear. This is the guy who was sat in the car with Emma O'Reilly when she transported Lance's drugs to Girona from Belgium. He has been in the sport for a lifetime. O'Reilly might not think its such a big deal doing the run, but Lillistone knows exactly what he is engaged in. Pals with Herety, Wegelius and Southam. This is post the Festina bust of 1998 and the time of whacky events like when the wife of Rumsas was left to rot in jail for several months after the French Police caught her carrying EPO, despite all her claims that they were not for her Pro-cyclist husband, but rather for her poor sick mother. Rumsas, all balls and macho man did a runner and left her to her fate. Lillistone knew exactly what he was doing for Lance. The guy finished his cycling career and then worked for within British Cycling like Herety, Brailsford (Herety's manager) and the rest of the pack.

Lilistone could have exposed Lance at any stage. He kept quiet.

O'Reilly talks to Walsh. Walsh publishes. Lance goes for her. Walsh stands accused of publishing lies. Walsh contacts Lilistone. Lilistone doesn't want to get involved ! Sure thing he doesn't. Eventually, according to Walsh, he cries on the phone. Yes, sure thing Lillistone cries. The guy has about as much spine as Rumsas. The manager for Cycling at the London 2012 games and a 2 times Olympian knows exactly why he is crying. But it is only 2004. Eight years later this guy will be another cog wheel in the machine of "marginal gains".

Do you need me to spell it out ? Is Lance the only guy he knows, first hand, who is taking drugs ? The guy went to two OG, he was there as EPO ripped into the sport. Why do you think those in positions to employ him close to the sport, chose to employ him close to the sport ? Look not so much where they have come from but how they have arrived there.Guys like Lilistone, Herety, Wegelius, Southam and Millar are not the problem. For every one that is exposed, there is another in the queue behind to take their place. Its the buffoons above them who can't be bothered to look at what is happening under their noses and who then make it even more difficult to expose the cheats. Did Cookson call him in in 2004, as Lance sued Walsh, and make a formal inquiry in relation to Lilistone's role in this illegal act ? As an employer and with a duty of care to the riders in the GB squad, Cookson certainly should have done. Instead Lillistone just gets promoted and the whole thing brushed under the carpet. "Team GB, we are all clean here. Boardman was the only clean guy riding in his day."
  1. Simon Lillistone ‏@simonlillistone 4h
    @johnherety @tomsoutham Compact chainsets hadn't been heard of in those days! Great photo.

    5:57 AM - 24 Nov 13 · Details " data-mentions="RealStephens RoddyRiddle sportivephoto Chris_Boardman 1Dodgygeeza cnewton753" data-you-follow="false" data-you-block="false">
    41d4cfd751ca36498c02362a337295b4_normal.jpe Simon Lillistone ‏@simonlillistone 24 Nov
    @RealStephens @RoddyRiddle @sportivephoto @Chris_Boardman @1Dodgygeeza @cnewton753 used to drive 1cm off the bumper of lorries at 60 on mway


    I'll leave you to your thoughts. Mine obviously disturb a lot of people.
Did Charlie Wegelius ride clean ? As I said. It is like religion. Did Jesus feed the 5,000 with just 10 loaves of bread and a few fish. Way to go. Get on your knees and pray to join the club. Have a great time singing. I am sure it sucks that I don't join in and even worse, that I sound a discordant note.
 
thom

thom

____
Location
The Borough
resal said:
Did Charlie Wegelius ride clean ? As I said. It is like religion. Did Jesus feed the 5,000 with just 10 loaves of bread and a few fish. Way to go. Get on your knees and pray to join the club. Have a great time singing. I am sure it sucks that I don't join in and even worse, that I sound a discordant note.
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Interesting story @resal. It is fair enough to point out the likely complicite of people who were in the peloton at the time of Lance et al. and indeed all the hangers on who must have colluded if not all the time then at some point or other. But I'd say 95% of the readers of this thread know that score.

Some things are unknowable though. Perhaps the verdict on someone like Wegelius should be "unproven" at the moment. If he was doping, we certainly don't know the extent of it.

The wider question is about truth and reconciliation. Obviously guys who did well but got caught like Riis, Vinokourov etc. still operate in cycling at a high level yet they never opened up about what they did - they are guilty yet officially allowed to operate in plain sight somehow.
Wegelius is now DS at Garmin, a team at the vanguard of clean cycling with a track record of at least being honest when it comes to official enquiries into drug abuse. While he has not publicly divulged an involvement in doping, I actually think its better to wait for a forum that the UCI/WADA put together. I mean, for sure, he would have sold more books if he'd told doping stories but it would have been a mess and it does not mean he doesn't want to reveal things directly to the UCI/WADA.

Remember, he wrote the book while McQuaid was still in charge - not a guy who's reacted well over the whole issue.
 
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