consume by dates on food

[Rezillo]

That is exactly the point that the Frenchman was making. They are prepared to take a risk so that they can have interesting food, and they make a personal choice in order to experience it. The French have a different attitude towards risk, and that extends to a lot of activities. If a UK food safety geezer went to a summer market selling thick local cream he would go ballistic.

There's more to it than that though. It's certainly an image they like to project but the French don't have as relaxed an attitude to food safety as anecdotal evidence might suggest. They are subject to exactly the same EC food safety law as we are in the UK and how they enforce it is subject to external scrutiny and monitoring. National stereotypes and holiday experiences play a part in views on this, of course, and there will be some real variations across the EC but there is no great difference between the two countries.

I will use my own anecdotal evidence, as "a UK food safety geezer", in that I have colleagues working for UK food companies operating in France and a French food safety officer working in my team. His own experience is that what we do in the UK is very similar to France. The main difference is that the French food safety officers operate in a more draconian enforcement environment. They have similar powers to us but the courts are much more biased against the defendant and more or less assume guilt at the outset. I also have a friend who set up a B&B in France and found the experience with the French food safety system far more intimidating and bureaucratic than here.

I'm not sure why I would be expected to go ballistic over French thick cream, though. I don't worry that much about my food. About the only no-no for me is raw milk, desite being brought up on it and loving its taste.

John

 

[661-Pete]

The scary thing about Salmonella and E Coli is that they are often present in seemingly fresh food, long before its use-by date. As often as not they're down to contamination of food, especially with faeces, rather than putrefaction. Poor handling and poor hygiene.

 

[Paulus]

I don't and never have gone by the dates. If something smels bad, or is green or someother strange colour then it will get binned. I cut the mould off of cheese, though this rarely happens though as the cheese gets eaten quickly in my house. People are now too fussy and follow blindly the regulations designed to help the large supermarkets sell even more overpriced foodstuffs to us. It is a shame some of the profits do not get to the producers of the food. ie, the farmers and growers.

 

[srw]

France has around 400 to 450 deaths per year from food poisoning compared to around 50 to 60 in the UK. It varies a bit - some French outbreaks have had fairly high death rates and these don't occur every year.

We have rates of about 1 in a million; the French have rates of about 1 in 100,000. Either way, the chances are very slim indeed - and I'd put large amounts of money on most of those deaths occurring in those who are already very sick, or very vulnerable (the very old, the extremely young). I'd also put fairly solid money on the British numbers being under-reported and the French numbers being over-reported, given the French attitude that tries to medicalise everything.

 

[dellzeqq]

I decided to experiment on myself tonight. I was having pitta breads with salad and only noticed at the last minute that the pittas' Best Before date was October 29th. They seemed okay but if I suddenly disappear off the forum, you'll know what happened to me!

calling ColinJ, calling ColinJ............

just about to pop the 11th November pizza in to the oven.........

 

[Arch]

I decided to experiment on myself tonight. I was having pitta breads with salad and only noticed at the last minute that the pittas' Best Before date was October 29th. They seemed okay but if I suddenly disappear off the forum, you'll know what happened to me!

You'll be fine. Pitta breads are about 95% cardboard and that doesn't go off at all....

 

[Rezillo]

I'd also put fairly solid money on the British numbers being under-reported and the French numbers being over-reported, given the French attitude that tries to medicalise everything.

Only my impression but the perception amongst my colleagues and those I speak to at the HPA and the FSA is the reverse - the UK reporting system, while not perfect, is actually pretty good compared to many other EU countries. The UK has also had a detailed study done of reported versus actual case numbers in the population. Most people with mild or moderate symptoms probably won't see their GP or if they do, may not submit specimens to confirm a diagnosis. Our 'real' food poisoning rate turns out to be about ten times the reported one.

The food poisoning deaths I've investigated over the years include previously healthy adults as well as the very young, frail or immuno-compromised. Yes, the latter groups are more vulnerable but they are far from exclusive ones. Even a modest outbreak willl leave a percentage of people with long term health effects. There are also bugs such as vtec E. coli, which causes permanent partial or complete kidney failure in particularly both young and schoolage children, as well as healthy adults. Unless these outbreaks cause death or large numbers of cases, they rarely make the headlines.

As this is drifting O/T, I ought to add that I have never had to deal with any food poisoning case where out of date food was a factor!

John

 

[vernon]

Our dog can eat a bowl of chili con carne and rice in three seconds flat, leaving a small pile of clean red kidney beans in the dish.

As an infant my son would eat his end of day Onken yoghurt fed to him by his child minder and store the grains in his cheeks until he got into the family car to be taken home whereupon he's disgorge them onto a tissue held by my wife.

 

[srw]

Our 'real' food poisoning rate turns out to be about ten times the reported one.

Ummmmm.... I think that's my point. We under-report food poisoning. I'm surprised (slightly) to discover it;s only a factor of ten.

 

[vernon]

I decided to experiment on myself tonight. I was having pitta breads with salad and only noticed at the last minute that the pittas' Best Before date was October 29th. They seemed okay but if I suddenly disappear off the forum, you'll know what happened to me!

Pittas are very good at being edible well after the best before date.

Wraps and tortillas have similar properties.

 

[ColinJ]

calling ColinJ, calling ColinJ............

just about to pop the 11th November pizza in to the oven.........

You'll be fine.  Pitta breads are about 95% cardboard and that doesn't go off at all....

No ill effects (unless there is a big delay before they manifest themselves).

Actually, I was a bit naughty because I also fed said pittas to someone else and she is very fussy about dates on packaging! (If we'd got food poisoning, I'd have pleaded ignorance...  "OMG - those pittas were really old!" )

 

[661-Pete]

I'd rather have one of tc's eat once poisonous mushrooms than a Maccy D!

By merest chance, The Guardian yesterday ran yet another story on the subject of TC's (and mine) favourite poisoning topic! But no use-by dates are going to help you there!

 

[Norm]

Pittas are very good at being edible well after the best before date.

Pittas are very good at being inedible well before the best before date.

 

[asterix]

My sense of smell is rather unreliable after a blow on the head so I tend to rely more on eat by dates than I would otherwise.

Must admit to being unaware of the exact nature of the OP's strong views WRT the topic. Just how strong can they be?

 

[Rezillo]

Ummmmm.... I think that's my point. We under-report food poisoning. I'm surprised (slightly) to discover it;s only a factor of ten.

Sorry, my fault for not being clear - all countries under-report but we're probably at least on a par with France and others (US is a different story). International comparisons tend to be done with lab results, not doctor reports, which helps objectivity.

It is a moving target - techniques are now so sensitive that tests on stored control samples from past surveys, where the person wasn't ill, pick up traces of infection which are presumed to be evidence of previous exposure. It also depends how you define food poisoning - if it is just as infectious intestinal disease, which will cover non-food borne infections as well (mainly viruses), then it is 100X or so.

Google on IID2 for the current survey.

John