Black Sheep
Guru
- Location
- Rammy
Correct answer to question/suggestion on brake lights for bikes?
- Thread starter caesar
- Start date
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ClichéGuevara
Legendary Member
- Location
- Kingston upon the River Hull
You could have said "I have, they're on the trailer..erm..ohshit...hang on. You didn't pass a bike trailer with two kids and a dog in back there did you?"
downfader
extimus uero philosophus
- Location
- 'ampsheeeer
Followed by "..my wife will kill me! This is the second time.." Can't recall who taught it to me, but the message was essentially to not concentrate on the brake lights on the car in front of you, but the car in front of that one. I was also taught economic driving, e.g. not to accelerate to red lights if you can avoid stopping by driving more slowly, something I'm not seeing very much in London. Then again, I got my license in Finland (fwiw learning to drive on ice is fun)
stargazer
Vermiculturist
- Location
- Bradley Stoke, Bristol
Hi Ceaser
I'd take a slightly different view on this. Moped guy could and should have seen the road ahead, the traffic lights, you and the pedestrian, and then anticipated what may happen, but it was you who changed the rules and decided to let someone across who did not have priority. You slowed down (albeit not sharply) and so moped guy finds that he is closing in on you faster than he had expected. The ped may also have been momentarily confused or surpried as he knows that he does not have priority, and being able to take more time to look back up the road behind you may already have decided and been triggered to cross once you and moped guy had passed (if there was no more traffic immediately behind you)
When you are riding, or driving, you should be aware what is going on all around you, not just in front (close and farther ahead). You had another vehicle behind you, which you should have checked for and seen before you committed to slowing down, so I think that you should have just continued up to the lights and stopped there. Yes, if moped guy had run into you I would say that it would have been largely his fault, but you would have contributed to it by slowing down where it was not necessary to do so.
Your lack of brake lights would not (or should not) be a factor as they are not a legal requirement or even a common or recommended accessory.
Others may disagree.
Stargazer
I'd take a slightly different view on this. Moped guy could and should have seen the road ahead, the traffic lights, you and the pedestrian, and then anticipated what may happen, but it was you who changed the rules and decided to let someone across who did not have priority. You slowed down (albeit not sharply) and so moped guy finds that he is closing in on you faster than he had expected. The ped may also have been momentarily confused or surpried as he knows that he does not have priority, and being able to take more time to look back up the road behind you may already have decided and been triggered to cross once you and moped guy had passed (if there was no more traffic immediately behind you)
When you are riding, or driving, you should be aware what is going on all around you, not just in front (close and farther ahead). You had another vehicle behind you, which you should have checked for and seen before you committed to slowing down, so I think that you should have just continued up to the lights and stopped there. Yes, if moped guy had run into you I would say that it would have been largely his fault, but you would have contributed to it by slowing down where it was not necessary to do so.
Your lack of brake lights would not (or should not) be a factor as they are not a legal requirement or even a common or recommended accessory.
Others may disagree.
Stargazer
I am 100% of the opinion that it is entirely up to other road users to keep a safe distance to their front. I'm with Tynan; never happened to me.
This may be because I only use what is known as 'primary' when I'm doing traffic speed. But it may be because it's a very, very rare thing anyway.
I'm amazed that the moped rider even thought bicycles should have brake lights. I imagine he/she hadn't been a road user for long.
As to the palm-down 'I'm slowing' signal, taught to me at Cycling Proficiency in the early 70s and for car/bike tests in the early 80s, I don't remember the last time I saw it used in town or in the sticks.
I'm pretty sure a lot of people wouldn't know how to react to it.
And one more thing about visible signs of slowing.... Beware the phenomenon of the urban fixie.... his pedalling stoppeth not; his spine straighten not. He is a rule unto himself and his route and speed shall be predicted not.
Cubist
Still wavin'
- Location
- Ovver 'thill
OP
A "devil's advocate" style question here. When you stopped in the middle of the carriageway to allow the pedestrian to cross, did you complete all-round observations to ensure that by doing so you would not endanger yourself or any other road users? It sounds, I'm afraid, like you weren't aware the moped rider (do you really need to use an insulting expression to describe them?) was behind you.
If the pedestrian was standing still you were not obliged to allow him priority, and your courtesy was not anticipated by the moped rider. In that case, by waving him across, you endangered yourself, the pedestrian and the moped rider.
In a "due care" style scenario you would have shared blame with the rider if he had ridden into the back of you.
As a tip, let other road-users make their own decisions when it comes to allowing folk to cross, etc. Waving the ped over and then the ped getting run over by the moped rider would have seen you facing some awkward questions from a court or coroner.
A "devil's advocate" style question here. When you stopped in the middle of the carriageway to allow the pedestrian to cross, did you complete all-round observations to ensure that by doing so you would not endanger yourself or any other road users? It sounds, I'm afraid, like you weren't aware the moped rider (do you really need to use an insulting expression to describe them?) was behind you.
If the pedestrian was standing still you were not obliged to allow him priority, and your courtesy was not anticipated by the moped rider. In that case, by waving him across, you endangered yourself, the pedestrian and the moped rider.
In a "due care" style scenario you would have shared blame with the rider if he had ridden into the back of you.
As a tip, let other road-users make their own decisions when it comes to allowing folk to cross, etc. Waving the ped over and then the ped getting run over by the moped rider would have seen you facing some awkward questions from a court or coroner.
Thanks for all the replies. This was a first in eight years of daily London commuting (17 miles per day until 2 years ago when we moved sticksward; now either 10 miles per day on the Brompton or ~56 on one of the road bikes) and riding at weekends too. I also suspect the moped rider to be fairly inexperienced.
Cubist, I usually keep a good picture of what is happening around me, life saver before every position change and frequently looking behind (both sides) while going straight ahead, very cautious about stopping on amber as I know cars behind will accelerate. I think that in this case, as I had passed a stationary lorry that was blocking the whole of the left lane and was steering back towards secondary, I was pretty sure there was nothing directly behind me. So I was taken aback when the moped said he nearly went into the back of me. There was traffic in the right hand lane but a bit further ahead - thinking about it, I suspect he might have followed my line to avoid the ped too, although there would have been about a 3 metre gap between me and the ped if he had stood still and I had followed my line instead of slowing.
Totally understand everyone's point on the danger of waving onother road users etc. It was a nod to say "I'll wait for you" rather than a wave across but these things can be taken the wrong way. Alarming that it could result in facing awkward questions though.
Cubist, "Mopedophile" is used for comic effect (and for teasing mopedophiles at work) and I suppose pejoratively too as some moped riders are some of the most inconsiderate road users I see (Addison Lee minicabs excepted). Have had a number of close shaves over the years with them swerving into cycle lanes without looking left and illegally entering ASLs from between queued traffic as I am moving across the ASL to turn right (especially Northbound Blackfriar's Bridge). "Momo" helmets seem to correlate closely with poor moped riding for some reason, might just be that they are memorable and seem to be insulting the person wearing it!
Cubist, I usually keep a good picture of what is happening around me, life saver before every position change and frequently looking behind (both sides) while going straight ahead, very cautious about stopping on amber as I know cars behind will accelerate. I think that in this case, as I had passed a stationary lorry that was blocking the whole of the left lane and was steering back towards secondary, I was pretty sure there was nothing directly behind me. So I was taken aback when the moped said he nearly went into the back of me. There was traffic in the right hand lane but a bit further ahead - thinking about it, I suspect he might have followed my line to avoid the ped too, although there would have been about a 3 metre gap between me and the ped if he had stood still and I had followed my line instead of slowing.
Totally understand everyone's point on the danger of waving onother road users etc. It was a nod to say "I'll wait for you" rather than a wave across but these things can be taken the wrong way. Alarming that it could result in facing awkward questions though.
Cubist, "Mopedophile" is used for comic effect (and for teasing mopedophiles at work) and I suppose pejoratively too as some moped riders are some of the most inconsiderate road users I see (Addison Lee minicabs excepted). Have had a number of close shaves over the years with them swerving into cycle lanes without looking left and illegally entering ASLs from between queued traffic as I am moving across the ASL to turn right (especially Northbound Blackfriar's Bridge). "Momo" helmets seem to correlate closely with poor moped riding for some reason, might just be that they are memorable and seem to be insulting the person wearing it!
As a disinterested casual reader, I find myself asking whether one really needs to take a patronising tone when criticising the OP's vocabulary...
Also... I thought it quite a funny word, unlike 'moton' and 'cager' which seem sometimes to drip with venomous enmity.
Cubist
Still wavin'
- Location
- Ovver 'thill
As a disinterested casual reader, I find myself asking whether one really needs to take a patronising tone when criticising the OP's vocabulary...
Also... I thought it quite a funny word, unlike 'moton' and 'cager' which seem sometimes to drip with venomous enmity.
Feel free to remain disinterested, but labelling people who use other forms of transport with that sort of term hardly helps the world to embrace the "we all share the road" ethos does it? Where shall we start next, skin colour? Religious belief? Ethnic culture? Sexual orientation?
I didn't intend it to be partronising by the way, I meant it as a gentle rebuke.
I'm not sure that many people would recognize such a signal. Last time I saw that used was on my cycling proficiency test about 30 or more years ago!
Do you just improvise or use the official signal?
Having said all the above, I sometimes use hand signals when out jogging as at least it gives other people an idea where I'm heading next.
Well I enjoyed it.
Cubist
Still wavin'
- Location
- Ovver 'thill
Arfcollins
Soft southerner.
- Location
- Fareham
I doubt this to be true. The ped does make his own decision to cross no matter what anyone else might do. If he relies on someone waving his arms at him (was that person waving me across or swatting a wasp?) then that his his problem. What law do you think a judge or coroner would be considering?
Cubist
Still wavin'
- Location
- Ovver 'thill
I have a pet hate of people stopping to wave other cars/vehicles over box junctions and out of side streets as I am filtering or using cycle or bus lanes. It's MY responsibility to stop, but it's all down to a lack of observation on the part of the driver.
In the scenario quoted by the OP, he indicates to the pedestrian that it is safe to cross, when it isn't. He must share responsibility in that. In a coroner's court he would have to answer awkward questions as the moped rider is going to use the fact he waved the pedestrian into his path to mitigate or even negate his blame for the collision. It may even turn out that a coroner would lay the blame at the cyclist's feet, opening the way for a private prosecution/ litigation hearing.
Similalrly he would be a defence witness in a case of due care against the moped rider if the moped rider was in court for hitting the pedestrian.
