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cyberknight

As long as I breathe, I attack.
Don`t cycle up the inside of buses / lorries would be a lot simpler and safer.
 

stowie

Legendary Member
Don`t cycle up the inside of buses / lorries would be a lot simpler and safer.

Tried applying this in London? What about when there is a bus lane on the inside and lorries are queuing in the general traffic - should we just wait in the bus lane? How about when you are directly in front of a lorry? Get off and walk?

I have a very strong sense of self-preservation but steering clear of lorries completely is somewhat difficult in London. And pedestrians get disproportionately killed by HGVs (tipper trucks in particular). What should they do?
 
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Blurb

Über Member
Tried applying this in London? What about when there is a bus lane on the inside and lorries are queuing in the general traffic - should we just wait in the bus lane? How about when you are directly in front of a lorry? Get off and walk?

I have a very strong sense of self-preservation but steering clear of lorries completely is somewhat difficult in London. And pedestrians get disproportionately killed by HGVs (tipper trucks in particular). What should they do?

In bus lanes I give HGVs in the main traffic lane maximum clearance and make a judgement as to whether they may turn left.
I have got off and walked the bike on occasion to get around a tight/suspect spot.
 

stowie

Legendary Member
In bus lanes I give HGVs in the main traffic lane maximum clearance and make a judgement as to whether they may turn left.
I have got off and walked the bike on occasion to get around a tight/suspect spot.

But you still undertake them, right? This is what I am getting at - interacting with lorries with the current road setup is simply unavoidable. Telling people to simply not undertake lorries and buses firstly assumes that this is what happens with lorry / cycle accidents and secondly is simple to say and somewhat less than simple to implement.

I may be militant on this, but my view is that if you choose to bring vehicles into tight cities with large blind spots then responsibility for the machine not killing other people largely rests with you. This isn't to say that advising cyclists to keep away from lorries as much as possible isn't right, it is simply survival techniques in a set up which serves cyclists very poorly.
 

cyberknight

As long as I breathe, I attack.
So a device thats made to sense cyclists cyclists undertaking large vehicles to save lives, if you don`t put yourself in that position then your less at risk of getting squished.
So your saying that becuase you are aware that the vehicle has a blind spot your going to squeeze into it anyway?Yes the vehicles should do everything to eliminate those blind spots but surely you have a responsibility not to put yourself if possible in a dangerous position? If both sides work together then maybe there would be less chance of a fatality ?
 
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Blurb

Über Member
stowie - yes, I do undertake, but only in specific circumstances depending on traffic/speed, road layout, positioning of the lorry, clearance between me and HGV and any number of observations.
I tend to agree with your view re. a 'duty of care' commensurate with the level of danger vehicles introduce.

cyberknight - I agree you should avoid putting yourself into a dangerous position. None of us want to get squished. My example of undertaking whilst in a bus lane is a particular scenario where I think it is safe, see circumstances in reply to stowie.

Getting back to the device in question. I think I read that the majority of the recent fatalities in London were with HGVs/buses, and I can't help but think the audible warning may have helped prevent some of the incidents.
 

stowie

Legendary Member
So a device thats made to sense cyclists cyclists undertaking large vehicles to save lives, if you don`t put yourself in that position then your less at risk of getting squished.
So your saying that becuase you are aware that the vehicle has a blind spot your going to squeeze into it anyway?Yes the vehicles should do everything to eliminate those blind spots but surely you have a responsibility not to put yourself if possible in a dangerous position? If both sides work together then maybe there would be less chance of a fatality ?

No, I am saying that responsibility is different to survival tactics. I strongly recommend cyclists try to keep clear of lorries in general and where they need to interact to be very, very careful. These are survival tactics. I don't like the mantra of "don't put yourself in danger" because it may be used by some to place all responsibility on the cyclist and not ask why we have machines operating in dense cities which have such limited visibility.

I admit I may be considered somewhat militant on this. Lorries need not have such huge blind spots. Design and regulation have allowed this to happen. Whilst responsibility is foisted on those most likely to be hurt there is little imperative for those bringing the machines into our cities to change what they do and how they do it. In my world, blind spot mitigation wouldn't cut it. In fact it would be viewed as then the operator being negligent with health and safety to allow a machine to be operated with such obvious problems.

I do not squeeze past lorries. In fact I am verging on the paranoid with them. I will sit for 10 minutes in a queue rather than go past one where I consider there is any risk. But we have roads which make interacting with lorries more dangerous, not least because the limited infrastructure for cyclists tends to be shepherding them directly to danger areas.

I have some more general questions which I cannot answer. Why is it tipper trucks in particular that seem to be involved in so many accidents? Is it simply that there are more in London than artics? And why do buses - which operate in much closer proximity and are more numerous - seem to be safer for cyclists if one considers how many operate on our streets? Do they not have blind spots?
 

classic33

Leg End Member
Like it or not, we as cyclists are seen as the problem. And its we that are to blame.
Thats the viewpoint of those in the haulage business.
A change of mirror, to a Class VI(Cyclops) mirror would cut down on the drivers blind spots.
 
It's not all 'undertaking' by cyclists. I've found myself on the inside of large vehicles as they've semi overtaken then had to slow for traffic lights, say. If there are such big blind spots why do drivers put us in it?
 
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