Cyclecraft is "destroying" UK cycling

[dellzeqq]

I don't know about Manhattan, and I wouldn't, for a second, suggest that HGVs are the nicest things to have around, but when they're efficiently managed (and the supermarkets seem to be managing theirs very efficiently) they do get stuff around. Give me one HGV over four or more Lutons any day of the week............

Most big construction vehicles have rear wheel steering, which gives them tremendous flexibility. The menace to cyclists comes from smaller bulk carriers and skip lorries.

 

[jonesy]

marinyork- sorry, but when did I say statistics are all that matters? Or that everything of value can be quantitfied precisely?The point is that much of the evidence being discussed in this thread is quantifable and amenable to statistical analyis, how much things cost, modal shift, accident rates, travel distances etc, even attitudes using the appropriate techniques. I think you are up to your trick of looking for things to disagree about again...

 

[blockend]

There's an increasing tendency for the internet to be become atomised into particular points of view, which carry - or appear to carry - logical consistency. Many are simply intellectual Galapagos, making perfect sense within their own paradigm if divorced from the wider world. This thread resembles a campaign hothouse with each variety of exotic conclusion in full bloom but in need of some hybrid vigour.

'Why should more people cycle?' sounds like systemic failure dressed as an opportunity. I'd ask, 'why shouldn't they?' Why are the numbers increasing in fractions and interventionist approaches not being entertained?

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

There's an increasing tendency for the internet to be become atomised into particular points of view, which carry - or appear to carry - logical consistency. Many are simply intellectual Galapagos, making perfect sense within their own paradigm if divorced from the wider world. This thread resembles a campaign hothouse with each variety of exotic conclusion in full bloom but in need of some hybrid vigour.

An interesting observation. I wonder whether perhaps the different points of view already existed and the internet is providing a forum for them all to come together and be seen, which also provides the opportunity for the hybridization to which you refer. If it weren't for the internet, I would still be cycling in the gutter with a feeling of inferiority, doffing my cap to all the motorists for tolerating me as a guest on their roads!

There are definitely various micro-cultures in existence. Virtually all my urban cycling is commuting from town to city, but yesterday I went to a meeting in Manchester on my bike, whereas I would normally have left in the office and gone on the train. There was a definite culture shock from cycling in the centre of Manchester. To start with, there were quite a lot of bicycles; most of these were riding on the pavement, sharing it with pedestrians. I felt rather out of place cycling on the road, even though I was in cycle lanes for much of the time. I even started to understand why some motorists might feel I should be on the pavement, even though they are wrong and it would be illegal. What a weirdo, obeying the law like that!

 

[Fab Foodie]

blockend, I have no idea what you're wittering-on about in most of your posts, but if there's a James Joyce award for writing on the internet, I'm nominating you

 

[blockend]

blockend, I have no idea what you're wittering-on about in most of your posts, but if there's a James Joyce award for writing on the internet, I'm nominating you

I'm saying the fact that people come together in one place to create a consensus doesn't make their conclusion right.
The net is festooned with examples of micro-logic, even Safespeed makes sense if you remove a sufficient number of social conditioners and read Clarkson before bedtime. In my experience the rigour with which a proposition is defended on web fora is inversely proportional to the likelihood of it making sense to the rest of the world.
Pretending to operate like a car while riding a bike in heavy traffic falls squarely into the category of 'extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of crowds'.

 

[blockend]

If it weren't for the internet, I would still be cycling in the gutter with a feeling of inferiority, doffing my cap to all the motorists for tolerating me as a guest on their roads!

Before the internet was more than a notion in a well chewed paperback featuring green women in leather foundation garments pointing at flying saucers with spears, I never knew a single club cyclist who rode in the gutter. (If by gutter you mean the 18" containing drainage metalwork and not the post-Franklinian adoption of anywhere left of the middle of the lane).

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

Before the internet was more than a notion in a well chewed paperback featuring green women in leather foundation garments pointing at flying saucers with spears, I never knew a single club cyclist who rode in the gutter.

Ah, I didn't know you had to be in a club to ride a bicycle!

 

[blockend]

Ah, I didn't know you had to be in a club to ride a bicycle!

The ones who rode in the gutter then, as now, are generally the ones who take a laissez faire approach to where the pavement begins and highway ends and are untroubled by the distinction.

 

[blockend]

Something strange going on with the edit facility on this board.

 

[Norm]

Seems fine to me. Looks like you hit quote rather than edit.

 

[Mad at urage]

The ones who rode in the gutter then, as now, are generally the ones who take a laissez faire approach to where the pavement begins and highway ends and are untroubled by the distinction.

Like the untroubled chap back when I lived near Weybridge, who was cycling in the gutter and stopped to give way to the car on the roundabout. The car in front of me promptly drove into the back of the bike. Mr untroubled proceded to apologies to the car driver for getting in his way.

A laissez faire approach, get into the gutter and doff your cap to Sir the Motorist. Oh how you must love your life!

 

[lukesdad]

Like the untroubled chap back when I lived near Weybridge, who was cycling in the gutter and stopped to give way to the car on the roundabout. The car in front of me promptly drove into the back of the bike. Mr untroubled proceded to apologies to the car driver for getting in his way.

A laissez faire approach, get into the gutter and doff your cap to Sir the Motorist. Oh how you must love your life!

Thats called m-a-n-n-e-r-s dear boy,or have you like a lot of others forgotten what they are ?

 

[blockend]

A laissez faire approach, get into the gutter and doff your cap to Sir the Motorist. Oh how you must love your life!

Your reply typifies the fundamentalism of threads like this. I've never ridden in the gutter (okay, maybe when I was 8) but Franklinians believe prior to Cyclecraft everyone grovelled. If you look at film footage from the mass cycling era (sports and utility) you'll see riders claimed the same road space they do currently.
The point I was making, as I'm sure you know, is some riders are highly resistant to the legal status of cycles and cycling and will take whatever short cuts they deem necessary. The gutter is the perfect place to bunny hop the kerb and continue on your way if you are so disposed. With utility cycling numbers so low I'd have thought it premature to right off any initiative that will increase them. That some of those suggestions are synonymous with trolling says more about prevailing attitudes than workable solutions.

 

[jonesy]

Your reply typifies the fundamentalism of threads like this. I've never ridden in the gutter (okay, maybe when I was 8) but Franklinians believe prior to Cyclecraft everyone grovelled. If you look at film footage from the mass cycling era (sports and utility) you'll see riders claimed the same road space they do currently.
The point I was making, as I'm sure you know, is some riders are highly resistant to the legal status of cycles and cycling and will take whatever short cuts they deem necessary. The gutter is the perfect place to bunny hop the kerb and continue on your way if you are so disposed. With utility cycling numbers so low I'd have thought it premature to right off any initiative that will increase them. That some of those suggestions are synonymous with trolling says more about prevailing attitudes than workable solutions.

Another stunning victory for blockend in his battle against the straw men...