Cyclecraft is "destroying" UK cycling

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Tommi

Active Member
Location
London
Tommi, if you want to make comparisons between different places, then what do the cities in the UK with the highest levels of cycling have in common? And what do the cities in the UK with the most extensive segregated cycle networks have in common?
That sounds like worthwhile reading. I gather someone has already done some such studies and you have references handy?

While I can see it might reveal what UK cycling campaigns have managed in last decade or so, I'm guessing it won't do much for the feeling the campaigning goals are lacking ambition.
 

Richard Mann

Well-Known Member
Location
Oxford
Tommi, if you want to make comparisons between different places, then what do the cities in the UK with the highest levels of cycling have in common? And what do the cities in the UK with the most extensive segregated cycle networks have in common?

Highest levels of cycling: restrictions on car ownership/use
Most extensive segregated cycle networks: low levels of cycling

The Dutch studies say that infrastructure isn't enough - you need car restraint too. Narrowing traffic lanes on main roads (and providing cycle lanes) does both.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
My unscientific observation is that one thing all the countries with notable (more than 5%) modal share have in common is significant amount of separated cycling infrastructure. Japan being the only exception I'm now aware of. In my mind there is suggestive correlation between the two, but as I haven't read any studies one way or the other I'm not making any claims.

Chicken or egg?
 

Tommi

Active Member
Location
London
Obviously I don't have answers to give as I haven't studied the issues. You said it yourself, it's difficult. But allow me make a few comments.

- how is this infrastructure going to happen when almost nobody wants it?
You mean after CTC took Cyclecraft bias seriously and systematically downplayed the infrastructure role? Dunno, maybe you could start listening to cycling embassy people instead of dismissing them out of hand.

- how is this infrastructure going to happen when absolutely nobody wants to pay for it?
Oh, you mean there exists infrastructure people actually do want to pay for? Wow. Anyway, how does any infrastructure get done? You could try same tactics. When it comes to cycling I'm sure some people more knowledgeable than me have thought these things through in much more detail. Maybe you could try listening to them.

- why would this infrastructure happen when £140million has been blown on LCN+?
How is that an obstacle? That money is already spent. Do you stop building motorways after spending £lots on one?
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Not share, but be more similar with each other than with Japan. Quickly glancing at http://en.wikipedia....Japanese_values, for example do you think Britain dealing with antisocial behaviour is more similar to Japan than western countries?

The social democrats of the scandinavian countries are regarded as 'westernised' yet deal with anti-social behaviour, and other crime against the person and community in ways which cause the average Daily Wail reader to rent their clothes and tear their beards.

Let's stick to cycling rather than crime and punishment....

On the Isle of Wight car drivers routinely and generally give way to cyclists, smile and wave at them, allow them lots of space during overtakes, and drive considerately. Compare this, if you will, with Hampshire and Sussex where car drivers generally want, well... shooting to be honest.

Does this mean a high incidence of French genes amongst the natives of Vectis? Cos they certainly drive and behave towards cyclists like Frenchmen.

Fwiw in my opinion road cycling on the IoW, outside Newport, seems to me to be as near to Cycloutopia as anywhere in this green and pleasant land, and, trust me, that ain't because of segregation.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
Obviously I don't have answers to give as I haven't studied the issues. You said it yourself, it's difficult. But allow me make a few comments.


You mean after CTC took Cyclecraft bias seriously and systematically downplayed the infrastructure role? Dunno, maybe you could start listening to cycling embassy people instead of dismissing them out of hand.


Oh, you mean there exists infrastructure people actually do want to pay for? Wow. Anyway, how does any infrastructure get done? You could try same tactics. When it comes to cycling I'm sure some people more knowledgeable than me have thought these things through in much more detail. Maybe you could try listening to them.


How is that an obstacle? That money is already spent. Do you stop building motorways after spending £lots on one?
you're so not getting it. CTC has 50,000 to 60,000 members. The members do not want cycle lanes. I don't want cycle lanes. These days the LCC members are not so struck with them either. Only a couple of hundred zealots, beset by a kind of cultural autism, want cycle lanes. Now, it's true that in 1914 the Bolsheviks were five people with beards having coffee and chocolate cake in Zurich, and in 1917 they were running the biggest country in the world, so I don't write everything off completely, but I will give long odds that in thirty years time we will not have cycle lanes. I think that we'll have 20mph zones across most towns, and that through traffic will be stopped from going through residential areas, and that, if there is a God, car parking will be taxed, putting the superstores at a disadvantage, and I think that many, many more people will be cycling, but I'm supremely confident that we won't have cycle lanes. I think that people will spend time in their front gardens, and will be more likely to know their neighbours, and that local shopping will thrive and that children will play football in the streets again, and that we may even win the World Cup as a result, but we won't be having cycle lanes. I think that the air will be cleaner, that public transport will improve, that more and more streets will be flat-surfaced, that the private car will be nigh-on absent from the centre of London and other UK cities, that fewer and fewer people will die on our roads, but, as sure as eggs is eggs, we will not be having cycle lanes.

And, to repeat...if Lambeth Council started proposing cycle lanes for my high street then I'd be opposing it tooth and nail. Because cycle lanes aren't just expensive - they're uncivilised. Think on this, Tommi. You may be a gentle soul, a lover of literature, a person who can appreciate art and nature, but in this respect you are the barbarian. You are the person that wants to slice up public space, to privatise it, to make it yours to the exclusion of others. You are the person who would draw lines across a sheet of paper to tell people, delivery drivers, pedestrians, people in wheelchairs, that, no, part of their street is now your street. That you haven't considered this, after umpteen pages of prompting suggests a certain lack of culture, a kind of moral ataxia. Like I said, in this respect you are the barbarian.

I think it's time to start drawing.........
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
Although I agree with your point, DZ, I should point out that the CTC statistics are junk.
I'm sure you're right. I was simply trying to undercut some of the easy assumptions made by the Cycling Embassistes.....
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
cycle lanes aren't just expensive - they're uncivilised. Think on this, Tommi. You may be a gentle soul, a lover of literature, a person who can appreciate art and nature, but in this respect you are the barbarian. You are the person that wants to slice up public space, to privatise it, to make it yours to the exclusion of others. You are the person who would draw lines across a sheet of paper to tell people, delivery drivers, pedestrians, people in wheelchairs, that, no, part of their street is now your street. That you haven't considered this, after umpteen pages of prompting suggests a certain lack of culture, a kind of moral ataxia. Like I said, in this respect you are the barbarian.

abd there's the rub, the nub of the problem, ordinary human powered people once bestrode their streets like millions of tiny colossi, going wither and thither wherever the fancy took them, all behaving in a more or less civilised fashion because in order to get along in the civitas thats what we have to do. People owned the streets. Then came the car (and don't get me wrong the car has its place I own (a very small) one and have access to a larger faster one owned by my wife, and motorways, they are brilliant. Neither are as good as a good train but thatis another story) and the people in cars staged a coup and literally took over the (our) streets.

Seeing this those human powered peeps divided themselves into two camps; those, I guess like Dell and I and others, who say 'nope. not.having.this. we are the resistance, we don't recognise your hegemony over us, being mighty isn't righty, so we are going to continue to use our streets despite you, even though our very presence antagonises you to the point where you behave in such an uncivilised manner that people get hurt.'

The second group seem, to me anyway, to say. "Once we all owned the streets. The cars have taken over. Let's divide the streets between us, the cars and the peds. Becuase they, the drivers have their space, so to must we, our own private street than only we can use" and to me that is utterly bonkers.

If the streets were not choked with cars everyone could, and maybe would, cycle on them. So the answer has to be to regulate the use of private motor vechiles by whatever means necessary to get them out of our town and city centres not superimpose a seperate infrastructure so different classes of people can avoid them. This country already has the ideal cycling infrastutrue in the heart of every town and city, the streets, the only thing that wrecks it is excessive car use.
 

John the Monkey

Frivolous Cyclist
Location
Crewe
You mean after CTC took Cyclecraft bias seriously and systematically downplayed the infrastructure role? Dunno, maybe you could start listening to cycling embassy people instead of dismissing them out of hand.

The Embassy have a few problems to surmount here - in my view;

1) The "cum hoc, ergo propter hoc" nature of the central argument for infrastructure. (As remarked previously, I think, the Dutch began with a higher level of cycling, and have been spending without a huge increase (although still one that would make many here envious, and there are cultural differences too).

2) The fact that British designed and built infrastructure is generally poor, badly maintained, rarely linked - and because of that there's a huge lack of belief in it as an end[1]. (And the argument that the new stuff will be "good quality" generally comes across as special pleading, if not what we've heard from our councils for years)

An antipathy towards infrastructure is often described as "bias", when, if you've ridden any of it in the UK, it's a perfectly defensible, evidence and experience based position to hold. The leap of faith here surely comes from the segregationists, who want us to believe that the same councils, highways engineers &c cresponsible for the largely dire stuff we have now can produce something that isn't at best useless, or at worst dangerous.[2]

3) The willingness of (some) of them to dismiss enthusiasts as an irrelevant minority[3] "We are speaking to/for the millions that don't cycle". Which may be so, but some are quite willing to abandon all measures around vehicular cycling, even as a stop gap to keep current cyclists riding while the utopia is built.

4) Civilising the roads fits into, and allows us to make common cause with, the aims of other movements for road danger reduction. Segregation fits more readily into the old "Road Safety" paradigm, in which people are kept out of the way of motor traffic.

[1] although often cited as what "non-cyclists want" it's interesting that new cyclists will usually be ignoring the crappy bits of green paint within a few months of beginning.

[2] Again, to be fair, I think one of the central planks of the CEGB is minimum design standards for infrastructure, that are properly enforceable.

[3] Is a recurrent trope from some ardent segregationists (not those associated with CEGB, necessarily) - I've noted Copenhagenize's sneering contempt for "sport" cyclists, bicycles &c on my own little corner of the web before. The zealots are convinced that they don't need "us", so I suppose in that sense it doesn't really matter.

Interestingly, David Hembrow is a lot less po facedly "STOP ENJOYING YOURSELF" on this score - a number of his posts talk about speed (for both commuting and leisure) and what he sees as the misconception that Dutch paths are for leisurely pottering and nothing else.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
JtM - I'd noticed the sneering at sports cyclists. Like I care. But, like many people on this forum, I'm a shopping cyclist and lycraiste by turns. Does that make me a good person or a bad person?

We've got to be a little cautious about 'the private car'. I accept that in the 'burbs the private car is a plague, but there's not too many of them in the centre of London - we've outnumbered private cars on some of the main arterial roads for some time now. I'd stop the private car getting in to zone 1 tomorrow (and stop it running down suburban residential streets, and put a wall across the entrance to superstore car parks) but even if I were king for the day and private cars were, indeed, banned from zone 1 there would still be an awful lot of traffic - and cyclist deaths would be undiminished.

Until somebody comes up with something really clever we're going to need tradespeople, delivery vans, buses, even large commercial vehicles in towns.
 

jonesy

Guru
That sounds like worthwhile reading. I gather someone has already done some such studies and you have references handy?

While I can see it might reveal what UK cycling campaigns have managed in last decade or so, I'm guessing it won't do much for the feeling the campaigning goals are lacking ambition.


Tommi, muy question was largely rhetorical: your attention has already been drawn, repeatedly, to the lack of segregated networks in Oxford and Cambridge, and the lack of cyclists in Milton Keynes, Stevenage and Bracknell...

However, Richard has kindly helped you with a very concise summary:

Highest levels of cycling: restrictions on car ownership/use
Most extensive segregated cycle networks: low levels of cycling

The Dutch studies say that infrastructure isn't enough - you need car restraint too. Narrowing traffic lanes on main roads (and providing cycle lanes) does both.

Again, people cycle in Oxford and Cambridge because it is advantageous to do so, in comparison with the alternatives.

I think Richard's point about on road cycle lanes is important, as so far the discussion here has focused on the merits or otherwise of physical segregation. Used appropriately, on-road lanes can be a useful tool in helping reduce the width of vehicle lanes, thereby helping with speed reduction, while marking out clear space for cyclists, improving comfort. And they are affordable.
 

John the Monkey

Frivolous Cyclist
Location
Crewe
JtM - I'd noticed the sneering at sports cyclists. Like I care. But, like many people on this forum, I'm a shopping cyclist and lycraiste by turns. Does that make me a good person or a bad person?

Well, precisely. I potter about on the Brompton in "normal" clothes, ride the tourer in baggies & SPDs, and the racer in top to toe lycra.

At one end, normalisation, at t'other treachery.

The point about cars and other vehicles is an interesting one. Manchester's plan[1] to bar them from sections of Oxford road (allowing only busses, taxis and delivery vehicles) would, I reckon, free one of the two traffic lanes entirely.

[1] Mooted when we had our referendum on a congestion charge - the monies raised would have paid for the alteration, among other projects to improve public transport &c.
 

dellzeqq

pre-talced and mighty
Location
SW2
I'm going to be spending a night with one of Brighton's Green Councillors this Friday (the Greens have, sensationally, become the largest group on the Council). I may bore her to tears by showing her how one can civilise the streets for absolutely no money, do it in a way that is electorally popular, cut car trips, and, at the same time, increase land values. As luck would have it the street most in need of this Dellzeqq makeover borders her ward.

Suffice to say - cycle lanes are not involved!

JtM. It's always seemed to me that Greater Manchester (and 'Greater Birmingham') presents a really difficult problem. To simplify, in London we have a radial pattern, with one very large city centre. You have a multi-centred arrangement, with roads like the M60 turning all of Greater Manchester in to a vehicle prairie 'burb. In a sense the discussion about cycle lanes is neither here nor there - getting public transport to respond adequately to the pattern of activity is difficult enough. Parking taxes, bus lanes and homezones could all help, but the root problem is that Greater Manchester is, effectively, ideally suited to car travel. How do you see it?
 

jonesy

Guru
I'm going to be spending a night with one of Brighton's Green Councillors this Friday (the Greens have, sensationally, become the largest group on the Council). I may bore her to tears by showing her how one can civilise the streets for absolutely no money, do it in a way that is electorally popular, cut car trips, and, at the same time, increase land values. As luck would have it the street most in need of this Dellzeqq makeover borders her ward.

Suffice to say - cycle lanes are not involved!


I'd guess not! ;)
 
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