Cycling in Holland - superb or what?!

[Glow worm]

my hostility towards any sort of cycling infrastructure came from my ignorance that segregated infrastructure can be good

+ 1.
It can indeed and has to be the best way to encourage novice cyclists (who after all make up about 80% or more of the adult population) whilst at the same time having the added benefit of taking more cars off the road and turning more motorists into cyclists as well as drivers.

Us lot can handle ourselves pretty well on the roads. It's the newbies, too nervous at present to try it, who might be encouraged to have a go and hopefully enjoy it.

 

[User169]

I'd agree that things work better in NL for commuters.

Couple of counterpoints though:

Surfaces can be very poor and surface types change very frequently. Quite of a few of the dedicated cycle paths I use are in a bit of a state; last time I cycled between Hoek and Den Haag (last summer), the path behind the dunes was collapsing. Lots of roads, especially in towns, are made from herringbone bricks which often get a bit lumpy.

The Dutch seem quite fond of cycle lanes positioned alongside parked cars in the door space. Those always worry me.

Dutch drivers pass extremely close to cyclists, especially on one way streets where cyclists are permitted to cycle the "wrong way". Very few drivers will give you much space in those circumstances and they don't seem to make much allowance for children.

There are I think some striking differences between NL and UK cycle commuting:

Dutch commuters typically have shorter commutes and cycle more slowly than their UK counterparts; a commute over 10km would I think be rather unusual. The slower pace leads to less conflict with other cyclists and peds, at least in my experience. Following on from that, Dutch commuters rarely see their commute as a sporting event, wear ordinary/work clothes and use heavy sit-up-and beg-style bikes. All of this adds up to a greater air of normality and the entry barrier to cycling NL seems to be somewhat lower that the UK (no sporty-bike, specialised clothing, expensive anti-theft devices, helmet(!)).

Also, employers don't appear to be expected to provide special facilities for cyclists other than parking space - wheel benders being the most common provision. Some of the posters on this forum seem to suggest that they won't cycle to their workplace in the absence of provision of rather specific set of facilities (secure, indoors with showers).

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

As it happens, this kind of change is something that is happening right now on one of the routes into Salford and Manchester, and I have to say as a cyclist I have been looking forward to its completion. The A6 (Broad Street - The Crescent - Chapel Street) is currently being reduced from two lanes plus a bus/cycle lane down to one lane plus a bus/cycle lane, with the addition of extra pedestrian crossings and wider pavements. The motorists I know are screaming, using words like "crazy", "madness" and "insanity", and "it will be impossible to get into Manchester", and I just nod and smile to myself.
The changes are happening here: http://maps.google.c...016201&t=k&z=17 (Of course, that is the "before" picture.)

Interesting in following that.

I went to have a look at lunch time. I was pleased in one respect and disappointed in another. The road is goiung to be improved in a sense as there will be far less traffic and wide open spaces. However, the disappointment is that there is about 17m of available width being used for pedestrians and a wide central reservation, but it looks as though bicycles will still be expected to share the bus lane. If that is correct, whilst it will still be an improvement, it will be an opportunity missed I'm afraid.

 

[SavageHoutkop]

And that, I fear, is exactly correct. To your average Brit, the idea of losing some parking space is unthinkable.

There was a proposal from one of the car-shares (I forget which) to place a car or two in Withington. One of the reasons I haven't joined a car-share scheme is that the cars are all in the city centre in Manchester, which is not useful if you cycle/bus to work in the week, but would like a car for an hour or so on the weekend to go to somewhere not easily served by public transport - so I'd need to get into town to get the car, drive wherever, park back in the centre, and then get home again somehow.

The plan was rejected because one (or two) parking spaces in Withington village would be lost.

 

[markg0vbr]

I think we have it right, a miss mash of confusing in some cases down right deadly "traffic calming" but then I am a adrenalin junky.
things will not change until a tipping point is achieved, we are a long way from that the vast majority of road users here have never ridden a bike on the road in there adult life and as children were forbidden from riding on the road. when people perceive bike riding as deadly dangers they will not even attempt it. will £20 a gallon change thing? i do not think so pepole will just take on finance and get a new electric car as big and road hogging as there petrol car, I think all we can do is stop whinnying get on with it and enjoy the daily adrenalin buzz

 

[Glow worm]

I think all we can do is stop whinnying get on with it and enjoy the daily adrenalin buzz

Well that's certainly one way of looking at it I guess! (You also have the added disincentive of hills there which we don't have so much here ).

For me, the bicycle offers so many dead simple solutions on so many levels (health, environment, pollution reduction etc). It's perhaps because it's so simple that it's so frustrating how it gets overlooked by leglislators and planners in the UK. So many people wonder for example why they haven't seen their feet since 1976, when an occasional bike ride could be such an easy way of getting fit and losing weight. We shouldn't have to put up with the 'farcilities' we have here when there are relatively straightforward ways of reducing the (often perceived) risks of cycling for novices and children. We won't change the car culture here overnight, but some long term planning over say 20 years could I'm convinced bring noticeable benefits.