Cycling in Holland - superb or what?!

[MrHappyCyclist]

My feeling is that yes- we can't rip up all the existing infrastructure, but there are some examples where safe, wide, well surfaced paths along the Dutch model could be created- paths that actually go somehwere.

Here in the Fens for example, there are countelss examples of short stretches of dangerous fast A roads, linking towns no more than 10 miles apart, where a separate cycling 'highway' would be of enormous value. No inexperienced cyclist or novice would dream of cycling along the A10 for example or the A47. Use compulsory land purchase if necessary to stop all the pissing about and just get on with it. I'm convinced this would lead to an increase in cycling with more drivers also becoming cyclists, driver behaviour would improve making other shared use routes less daunting for the new, inexperienced cyclist.

Yes, I do agree with that, but you are really talking about the rural context, where I think there would be a lot of benefit and the change would be feasible, as you say.

I am thinking more of the urban context, where it just isn't feasible to put in a proper segregated cycling infrastructure, and the half-hearted attempts at segregation make it neither one nor t'other. Here, the existence of inadequate cycle lanes just reinforces the prejudices and bad attitudes of drivers and makes them less willing to share the road.

In particular, I think that any facilities that do not conform to the DfT's Cycle Infrastructure Design guidance need to be redesigned to conform or, if that is not possible, removed completely. Looking at section 7.4, that means practically every single metre of cycle lane on my 12.5 mile commute needs to be replaced or removed!

 

[snorri]

I am thinking more of the urban context, where it just isn't feasible to put in a proper segregated cycling infrastructure,

The only thing making it infeasible is the lack of political will at present.

 

[Biscuit]

Just read the OP from Glowworm,

What a heart warming account of your trip to Holland. I'm hoping to do the same tour myself later in the year, and was a little nervous about my first trip abroad by bike. Put my mind to rest. Thanks.

Fascinating video link as well.

 

[psmiffy]

The only thing making it infeasible is the lack of political will at present.

In Utrecht and many other Dutch cities the political climate was such that they could throw away the car is king model and replace it with a bicycle favourable model - political suicide in the UK

 

[enas]

[...] it will never (never say never but) happen in the UK - simply there is no space.

In Utrecht and many other Dutch cities the political climate was such that they could throw away the car is king model and replace it with a bicycle favourable model - political suicide in the UK

So in your second post, you contradict your first post, by giving the correct reason why it doesn't happen in the UK. Not because there is no space, but because the decision makers don't want to. That's very different indeed.

 

[Biscuit]

Interesting comments.
Remember that the dutch have arrived at this point by a series of very different constraints to our own.
The lack of early good roads, and the ubundance of canals for transporting goods, negating the need for early road investment.
The narrowing of the roadways to save maintainence leaving large flat verges on nearly every road.
By the time of the car, wagons and horse were already on the backfoot for illegally using the flatter cycle paths, so no surprise the car didn't become such a big deal as it is over here.
I think it's all a bit late for talking about political climate, like it's going to make a difference now anyway. Our system is unlikely to ever be as good as the Dutch model I would suggest.

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

So in your second post, you contradict your first post, by giving the correct reason why it doesn't happen in the UK. Not because there is no space, but because the decision makers don't want to. That's very different indeed.

These aren't contradictory positions. Of course there is sufficient space, if you have the political will, and resources, to buy up and demolish huge amounts of real-estate and suffer the disruption to businesses that will result, but since there is not the political will (nor the resources) to do that, then there is not sufficient space.

 

[david1701]

These aren't contradictory positions. Of course there is sufficient space, if you have the political will, and resources, to buy up and demolish huge amounts of real-estate and suffer the disruption to businesses that will result, but since there is not the political will (nor the resources) to do that, then there is not sufficient space.

or the enviromental impact of ripping up a lot of devon banks (at once) I guess there are similar things over the country

 

[enas]

buy up and demolish huge amounts of real-estate and suffer the disruption to businesses that will result

Seriously???

Did you actually click on my link? (I admit it was a bit hidden, so here it is http://hembrow.blogs...ch-streets.html and here too http://hembrow.eu/cy...omparisons.html). As you see, most of the times, we're talking of doing either nothing (other than changing the road layout), or simply sacrificing one side of parking bays (the extreme cases requiring sacrificing both sides, but that's the furthest it goes, no real-estate to be destroyed). So it's really only a matter of changing priorities, and moving away from a purely car-centric culture. The latter being to deeply rooted within most of us that even seasoned cyclists fail to see how it could be otherwise

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

Seriously???
Did you actually click on my link?

Apologies. I didn't notice the link, which is really very interesting. When I have chance, I will go through my commute and think about it a bit more.

As it happens, this kind of change is something that is happening right now on one of the routes into Salford and Manchester, and I have to say as a cyclist I have been looking forward to its completion. The A6 (Broad Street - The Crescent - Chapel Street) is currently being reduced from two lanes plus a bus/cycle lane down to one lane plus a bus/cycle lane, with the addition of extra pedestrian crossings and wider pavements. The motorists I know are screaming, using words like "crazy", "madness" and "insanity", and "it will be impossible to get into Manchester", and I just nod and smile to myself.

So I do think you have a very good point and I take back what I said earlier. Dammit, I'm usually much better at critical thinking than that, honest!

The changes are happening here: http://maps.google.c...016201&t=k&z=17 (Of course, that is the "before" picture.)

 

[Biscuit]

An eye opener that link enas. Thanks..there is hope then.

 

[ComedyPilot]

I spent 9 days in the Netherlands last May.


I have regretted every minute of it since.



Because I know what cycling infrastructure and conditions can be like, paid for by a population a quarter the size of hours, and we will never (IMO) get our collective heads out fom up our arses and do it.

I know in my lifetime that if I want that standard of living/cycling, I will have to move.

 

[Biscuit]

I know in my lifetime that if I want that standard of living/cycling, I will have to move.

I suspect you may be right. Maybe I'll meet a nice Dutch woman while I'm out there.

 

[Glow worm]

In Utrecht and many other Dutch cities the political climate was such that they could throw away the car is king model and replace it with a bicycle favourable model - political suicide in the UK

And that, I fear, is exactly correct. To your average Brit, the idea of losing some parking space is unthinkable. Currently, politicians would not stand a chance if they proposed a realignment of our streets along Dutch lines. (Whatever happened to the greenest Government ever that we were promised?!). And what a shame- take the 'Home Zone' concept- these lowish cost, simple schemes have been successful where piloted over here I gather (all about reclaiming residential streets from the dominance of the motorised vehicle and promoting shared space - see pics at Home Zone pics and some info at Home Zones ).

Furthermore, although I would favour a carrot rather than stick approach to this whole sorry mess, it can only be hoped that the continued rise in fuel prices spurs leglislators into some kind of action on alternative ways of getting about. A contributor above mentioned that a massive destruction of existing infrastructure would be required to achieve better cycling provision. I can't see that in most cases (as the interesting link comparing similar roads above highlighted). Its' mostly about better design, shuffling avaiulable roadspace about a bit, losing some parking (in some cases) and planting more trees.

I've often felt that what we really need is someone, or an organisation, with a bit of clout to champion cycling and the benefits it could bring to society on so many levels. (Years ago, I was lucky enough to have this guy as my next door neighbour Meyer Hillman and he was years ahead of his time- his ideas on promoting cycling and walking are exactly what we should be lobbying for). As cyclists, we are still percieved as whacky eccentrics by Mr Average Brit Mondeo Man (most of my neighbours think I'm bonkers for cycling) - that has to change. With all due respect to CTC and Sustrans, I just don't see their campaigning having the slightest effect on policy and Critical Mass, fun though it is for some, just gets people's backs up and does us no favour at all.

CP's point, depressing though it is is probably right but only if we let it. We have to be more positive, hard though it is sharing a crowded island packed with petrolheads, and at least have a go at making change happen.

 

[enas]

Apologies. I didn't notice the link, which is really very interesting.

So I do think you have a very good point and I take back what I said earlier. Dammit, I'm usually much better at critical thinking than that, honest!

You're welcome (I'm emphasising the smiley cause after reading back my post, I realise that as usual the forum didn't convey the proper tone, and I sound rather harsh.)

The changes are happening here: http://maps.google.c...016201&t=k&z=17 (Of course, that is the "before" picture.)

Interesting in following that.

An eye opener that link enas. Thanks..there is hope then.

I'm following this guy's blog with a lot of attention, which I would advice to anyone following this topic. It's the story of a British guy who moved to the Netherlands, and talks about segregated infrastructure as done in the Netherlands. The main point he's trying to make is that none of this happens just because Dutch are Dutch and Netherlands is Netherlands, but rather because of conscious choices, all of which could be taken in the UK.

It is an eye opener all right, and has definitely changed my opinion on segregation: as all committed city cyclists in non-cycling friendly countries (I'm in Ireland, but it's the same story really), I was a fervent supporter of vehicular cycling and that claiming your right to be on the road was the only way to go. Now I understand that this is needed only as a survival technique in a generally hostile context (which I'm personally very happy with), and that never ever will the masses be brought to cycling with vehicular cycling. And that my hostility towards any sort of cycling infrastructure came from my ignorance that segregated infrastructure can be good