Cycling, Safety and Sharing the Road

[Davidc]

Yes - and quite naturally so. Going places in comfort at speed and with little hassle. etc.

What you've identified is surely a set of reasons for car uptake. The Car Culture and the Car is King attitude are related but separate.

It should be quite possible for people to use cars but not have an expectation that they take absolute priority over everything, everybody, and everywhere.

I'm in the minority that would like to see the complete end of the private car coupled with restoration of efficient and effective public transport. I hate the things. However, even I would accept that a change of culture could make the use of cars tolerable. That change of culture would be to a general view that cars are tolerated but secondary to everything else, that they are an unwelcome intrusion on the streets, spoil our towns and cities by their presence etc. Very differnt from the general view now.

My desire to see an end to private cars is unlikely to come about, a change to the present dominance of our lives by the car can, but I'm not hopeful.

 

[davefb]

We'll just have to disagree. I simply look forward to the day when we follow the scandinavian countries, Poland and so on and make 24/7 lighting compulsory, with the (measured, documented, and large) improvement in safety that brings.

makes a load of sense in sweden et al, it relates to the much longer time of low level sunlight and the issue that causes. it is however daft to make this pan european because theres only a much smaller time period in most eu contries this would be useful.

and yeah, more co2

 

[snorri]

We'll just have to disagree. I simply look forward to the day when we follow the scandinavian countries, Poland and so on and make 24/7 lighting compulsory, with the (measured, documented, and large) improvement in safety that brings.

I think the strict liability laws in mainland Europe give greater protection to vulnerable users than any lighting systems on motor vehicles.

 

[Davidc]

I think the strict liability laws in mainland Europe give greater protection to vulnerable users than any lighting systems on motor vehicles.

Totally different issue.

When I've cycled in F B and NL what's been clear is a that the attitude to cyclists is completely different, the road culture is different. I don't think that's affected by liability laws. The different culture is what makes the liability laws possible and acceptable. The other side of the coin is cyclists having to accept more control on how, what and where they ride.

Would cyclists in the UK accept the stricter rules on use of bikes in exchange for having the continental culture?

 

[John the Monkey]

Going places in comfort at speed and with little hassle.

And therein is the problem with much debate on the topic in the UK, imo.

Little hassle for the folk in the cars.

For the folk outside, fast roads divide communities, curtail the freedom many of us took for granted, and swallow vast amounts of government funds.

The same motorist centeredness is evident in safety discussion too - how many articles talk about motorists using mobiles "in slow moving traffic" with the implication that this is less dangerous (and from the point of view of the motorist, it is, sadly it's also prime time for squashing someone moving between the cars, or sending a filtering cyclist or motorcyclist flying).

 

[sheddy]

Possibly OT, but some backgound on the dangers of Daytime Running Lights (but the yourfreedom petition is closed)
http://www.dadrl.org.uk/whatsnew.html

 

[Origamist]

Totally different issue.

When I've cycled in F B and NL what's been clear is a that the attitude to cyclists is completely different, the road culture is different. I don't think that's affected by liability laws. The different culture is what makes the liability laws possible and acceptable. The other side of the coin is cyclists having to accept more control on how, what and where they ride.

Would cyclists in the UK accept the stricter rules on use of bikes in exchange for having the continental culture?

I know that Dutch cycle campaigers were very keen for stricter liability laws to be enacted (i.e affording more protection to vulnerable road users). They often highlight this measure as one that has had a positive effect on road user behaviour.

 

[Davidc]

I know that Dutch cycle campaigers were very keen for stricter liability laws to be enacted (i.e affording more protection to vulnerable road users). They often highlight this measure as one that has had a positive effect on road user behaviour.

You're right, but they were asking for (and got) an improvement in a situation we'd already think of as utopia. My riding in NL hasn't covered the whole country and I've never commuted there but when a few years back I spent weeks in the areas round the big cities using a bike as transport the big difference I noticed was in the way motor vehicle drivers allow for the needs of cyclists, accept the few seconds delay allowing for cyclists being slower than them, give cyclists plenty of room, don't overtake until there's plenty of room, and so on. A different culture.

Apart from the trams that is.

There are a couple of downsides. When you do come across a driver not being attentive or not behaving well it's a shock and you tend not to have allowed for it properly whereas sometimes here it's a shock if you find one who is behaving properly. The other is when you get back after a few weeks, when it seems to take days to readjust.

It would be great if we could have the same liability laws, but they can't be acceptable to the majority until we change our road culture and people generally accept that we don't have to be ruled and dictated to by the motor car.

 

[snorri]

Would cyclists in the UK accept the stricter rules on use of bikes in exchange for having the continental culture?

Not sure about these stricter rules you refer to.

Regarding different "cultures", I would think a road users behaviour is formed by the laws in place. Weak laws and weak enforcement to protect vulnerable users in this country have got us into our present predicament.
I don't think the average mainland European is any more or less considerate to others than the average Brit, however the differerence in driver behaviour to vulnerable users is stark.

 

[Davidc]

The culture is the set of accepted and normal behaviours and it is different, having a much higher proportion of the population regularly using bikes is also part of the culture.

The sort of rules are compulsory use of cycle paths and lanes when provided*, compulsory carying of lights 24/7, tight construction and use rules even covering mudguards and other attached bits and likelihood of arrest if you show a flashing light**.

In exchange you seem to get the better treatment of cyclists.

And no one wears a helmet.

* ignored by large groups of cyclists out together who are tolerated, but not by individuals
** last time I was in NL cycling, about 4 years ago, there was a sizeable protest going on over this. You'll have to ask Deftse Post how it went, but AFAIK the cyclists lost that one.

 

[Origamist]

You're right, but they were asking for (and got) an improvement in a situation we'd already think of as utopia. My riding in NL hasn't covered the whole country and I've never commuted there but when a few years back I spent weeks in the areas round the big cities using a bike as transport the big difference I noticed was in the way motor vehicle drivers allow for the needs of cyclists, accept the few seconds delay allowing for cyclists being slower than them, give cyclists plenty of room, don't overtake until there's plenty of room, and so on. A different culture.

Apart from the trams that is.

There are a couple of downsides. When you do come across a driver not being attentive or not behaving well it's a shock and you tend not to have allowed for it properly whereas sometimes here it's a shock if you find one who is behaving properly. The other is when you get back after a few weeks, when it seems to take days to readjust.

It would be great if we could have the same liability laws, but they can't be acceptable to the majority until we change our road culture and people generally accept that we don't have to be ruled and dictated to by the motor car.

In the 60s and 70s the Netherlands was autocentric (cycle paths were removed, car usage was soaring etc). It took a raft of measures to change the roads into a more cyclist-friendly environment - some of the decisions where popular, others were treated with howls of anger. It was these sometimes tough decisions that arrested the car is king culture in the Netherlands.

What you also need to remember is that cycling in the Netherlands has evolved over the last 30 years - in the 80s the Dutch did not believe they had created a cycling utopia, they continued to improve the conditions for cycling. As I'm sure you are aware, even in the Netherlands, the quality of the provision and the cycling environment fluctuates between high quality and not so high quality. There is a huge amount of money invested in propagating cycling and making it as safe as possible (hence why only a tiny proportion of Dutch wear helmets - they percieve cycling to be be safe and an ordinary, everyday activity).

 

[Davidc]

My first experiene of he Netherlands was in the 70s, on a 10 day holiday on my bike. At that time as you say there was less difference between there and here. My knowledge of the place has increased since with family living there, and the improvements in bike provision have been continuous. They have been in parallel with changes in the road culture, with walking and cycling being properly respected.

If the UK is to become more cycle friendly, with cycling becoming a more mainstream form of transport we need that culture shift. Sadly I see too little movement towards it, although I view the 1980s as the low point for cycling here with things having got a little better since.