Cyclist escapes prosecution after fatal collision with pensioner

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presta

Guru
was clearly not riding at a speed that would allow them time/space to react if the unforeseen should happen
What speed has zero thinking and stopping distance?
I was doing 12-14mph when the pensioner stepped out in front of me, not 29mph, but at that speed my thinking distance was still 1.9m, and braking distance another 4.6m.

You should also be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear
What distance can you see to be clear before you have a tyre blowout?

This thread is going the way of virtually all risk debates, and arguing from the premise that people want zero risk when there's patently no evidence that that's the case. Remember, if all road deaths were totally unacceptable, mechanically assisted transport could have been rejected from the outset. With everything in life people weigh cost against benefit, and anyone motivated to improve road safety is going about the matter in an extremely inefficient manner if they choose cyclists as their primary target for enforcement.
 

Ming the Merciless

There is no mercy
Photo Winner
Location
Inside my skull
The only argument coming out of this thread is that posters want 20 mph speed limits on all roads pedestrians may be present. Not a bad thing for majority of roads.
 

glasgowcyclist

Charming but somewhat feckless
Location
Scotland
Victim blaming

Questions of fact to establish circumstances is not blaming. You’re getting a bit ahead of yourself there.

And I’ll point out that, in similar discussions on here over the years, I have expressed my support for presumed liability which in this case would see the cyclist held liable unless he could prove the contrary.
 
What speed has zero thinking and stopping distance?
I was doing 12-14mph when the pensioner stepped out in front of me, not 29mph, but at that speed my thinking distance was still 1.9m, and braking distance another 4.6m.

So what you are saying speed isn't the issue? Perhaps you are right. In that case what is? Perhaps lack of hazard awareness?

Do they not do a hazard awareness test for motorists as part of the test? I seem to recall something like that was in the test now. Perhaps cyclists need that?

I did an advanced driving course weeks after passing my test at 17 years old. The biggest thing out of that that I took was increased hazard awareness. That applies to driving and cycling. So I slow in certain places I recognise as having a higher risk. If the MH Peloton Club had better awareness of hazards AND cycled accordingly there would be an 80 year old lady still living.

If speed does not kill then is awareness of risks and hazards the real issue, especially with these chain gang cycle club rides. Bottom line someone is dead who should not be!
 
Questions of fact to establish circumstances is not blaming. You’re getting a bit ahead of yourself there.

And I’ll point out that, in similar discussions on here over the years, I have expressed my support for presumed liability which in this case would see the cyclist held liable unless he could prove the contrary.

Do you think he could prove contrary? I only ask because they were cycling in a dangerous manner, or do you not see that?

Riding in close quarters like a race peloton is dangerous at any time. To do that where pedestrians and tourists are likely to be adds a level. To then ride above the speed a motorised vehicle is allowed to go under the law adds another level since it is deemed too fast for the conditions at that place. Then stopping distance of a peloton group at that speed adds another level of hazard or risk.

On the other side the pedestrian just stepped out.

Would another class of road user get away with that one mitigation? Anyone seen evidence on this?
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
I suggest another argument is that team TTing/ chain gang on roads which pedestrians might cross is just not sensible. Single cyclists (as the front person in this 4 up group) have to keep sighting forward and can see hazards ahead and, for example, someone crossing to the central island who might just carry on. At a reasonable speed (varies and may not be 20mph) they can brake or moderate their speed so that they have time to take avoiding action (braking or line change). Also worth bearing in mind that even the lead rider (at any point in time) is trying to ride fast and any braking may cause a crash: so there's a 'mustn't slow down/brake' sentiment acting against the 'must brake' imperative when they spot a hazard ahead. This will slow decision making.
But the rider in wheel 3 or 4 isn't looking ahead: they are focusing on minimising power and keeping the wheel ahead no more (and no less) than a metre gap.
So in this type of environment (eg parks) TTTing needs to be prohibited. I can't see how this can be achieved by legislation. Speed limits could clearly be imposed by legislation (or indeed byelaws (see Richmond Park)) but TTTing: a challenge. In motoring terms tailgating is addressed by Dw/oDC proscription.
A cyclist riding alone can still get the same amount of training value as if they were riding in a chain, but without the attractive group dynamic. But much safer for all concerned. Just ride 30m apart, not one.
In Regent's Park, road design/furniture could make TTTing more difficult and slower, and also/therefore make it less attractive as a venue. As well as adding 'no TTTing' to the guidance (see image a few pages back) which already specifies groups of no more than 6.
 
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glasgowcyclist

Charming but somewhat feckless
Location
Scotland
Do you think he could prove contrary?

I have no idea, since all I have to go on is the same as the rest of us; the news reports.

I only ask because they were cycling in a dangerous manner, or do you not see that?

I see that the type of riding the group engaged in is not appropriate for the setting. To me it’s unacceptable to be involved in a group speed/time trial in a park.

Riding in close quarters like a race peloton is dangerous at any time. To do that where pedestrians and tourists are likely to be adds a level. To then ride above the speed a motorised vehicle is allowed to go under the law adds another level since it is deemed too fast for the conditions at that place. Then stopping distance of a peloton group at that speed adds another level of hazard or risk.

I agree.
 

steverob

Guru
Location
Buckinghamshire
Would another class of road user get away with that one mitigation? Anyone seen evidence on this?
I think yes.

I was an eye-witness to an accident a few years back where an elderly pedestrian stepped out in front of a car with basically no warning. The driver slammed on the brakes but still could not avoid hitting the pedestrian, who had serious enough injuries that we had to call an ambulance. I stayed on the scene to give the police a statement, as did two other witnesses and all of us said the same thing - there was nothing more the driver could have done in those circumstances. He was driving within the speed limit, was probably about 5 metres behind the car in front (it was a long-ish line of traffic with no obvious gaps that I personally would have considered crossing through) and could not possibly have anticipated anything like this happening.

Police took my name and address in case there was any further action required, but I was told that based on our statements they did not anticipate any charges being laid and that later proved to be correct (which I completely agree with).
 

Brandane

Legendary Member
Location
Costa Clyde
From Today's times

Crampton, as he most often does, is talking sence.


Cycling used to be cool. Now, too many bike riders are jerks
Robert Crampton
Tuesday May 07 2024, 12.01am, The Times

I was a regular cyclist, for transport not sport, ever since my stabilisers came off 55 years ago. I cycled to school, at university and then around London for work for 35 years. Now, I’ve pretty much stopped. That’s partly laziness, partly loss of confidence, partly the discovery of a bus direct to the office. But it’s also because I realised that I was no longer proud to identify as a cyclist.

Quite the opposite. Cycling used to be cool. Now, too many two-wheelers are selfish jerks. The guy who knocked over and killed the old lady in Regent’s Park may not have been breaking the law, technically. But I think he was behaving like an entitled shameless bozo. His “apology” in court was a wholly inadequate embarrassment.


Packs of City boys using Regent’s Park as a racetrack is a localised issue. The more general problems, I think, are fourfold: mounting the pavement; running red lights; not having a clue about hand signals, road positioning, braking distances (what people my age were taught in our cycling proficiency tests at primary school, in other words); and fourth (the newest menace), heavy, chunky, near-silent electric bikes that are basically motorcycles, but not legally treated as such.

This last, most serious threat is posed by electrically assisted pedal cycles. They do not require a licence, tax or insurance. Their batteries are supposed to be speed-restricted, yet a Google search yields video instructions on how easily they can be souped up. They are allowed in parks, unlike mopeds, and are thus a danger to unsuspecting pedestrians, especially kids, the elderly and the disabled.

The ebike problem could be solved swiftly, by bringing them within the scope of existing regulations governing more powerful vehicles. Similarly, the lack-of-road-sense issue could be addressed by reinstating the proficiency test.

But the pavement-invading and light-jumping issues are trickier because they are already illegal, yet flouted anyway, and not by a minority of self-consciously anarchic bike bandits, as was the case in my heyday 30 years ago, but routinely and brazenly by what appear to be otherwise respectable people.

At my bus stop in the morning, a bottleneck often leads to traffic jams. Held-up cyclists, impatient to keep moving, do so by using the pavement. They don’t lower their speed or look shamefaced. They just plough on, smugly, sometimes even tut-tutting at anyone in their way.

These jokers include middle-aged men and women, all decked out in hi-vis gear. I’ve witnessed several near-misses. As for red lights, many if not most cyclists now view them as optional. The police seem to include these illegalities on the long list of offences they no longer investigate.

Sometimes, I’m tempted to take direct action with a well-aimed shove, but that wouldn’t be very grown up, would it? Vigilantism isn’t the solution. Instead, a huge cultural reset is required, and it should be initiated within the cycling fraternity.

Those who know better should tell those that don’t to behave themselves, or the full panoply of registration will be coming for cyclists before too long, such is the public disquiet. I might even saddle up again myself, this time less as a commuter, more a road marshal, marauding around east London, distributing a piece of my mind as appropriate, a proper grumpy old man. I might even get some bike clips.

You could quite easily take the whole "cyclist" thing out of that and simplify it to "people are selfish jerks". It's something which has evolved for a few generations, but much more noticeable now. Drivers, shoppers, workers, pedestrians, and yes - cyclists. EVERYBODY is in much more of a hurry these days. We have become much more pressurised to be time efficient, and to have no time for those that are seen to be holding us up. Entitled, in a lot of cases. It has become a fact of life (sadly) but not something that is any more prevalent among cyclists than it is in the rest of society.
 

Bristolian

Well-Known Member
Location
Bristol, UK
What distance can you see to be clear before you have a tyre blowout?

I wasn't taking about mechanical failures here, for which there may be virtually no warning. The principal I stated relates to potential conflicts of space (i.e. two objects wanting to occupy the same space at the same time).
 

SpokeyDokey

67, & my GP says I will officially be old at 70!
Moderator
Mod note: thread locked.

The thread title is regarding a specific cycling/pedestrian incident, it is not about motorists/driving as per previous in-thread mod note.

It will be reopened once time is found to edit out the OT posts.


Edit: reopened.

Some 'motorist' content has been removed but some has been left in, where it is a tangential reference to similar circumstances as per the OP by way of illustrating a point.
 
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presta

Guru
So what you are saying speed isn't the issue? Perhaps you are right. In that case what is? Perhaps lack of hazard awareness?

Do they not do a hazard awareness test for motorists as part of the test? I seem to recall something like that was in the test now. Perhaps cyclists need that?

I did an advanced driving course weeks after passing my test at 17 years old. The biggest thing out of that that I took was increased hazard awareness. That applies to driving and cycling. So I slow in certain places I recognise as having a higher risk. If the MH Peloton Club had better awareness of hazards AND cycled accordingly there would be an 80 year old lady still living.

If speed does not kill then is awareness of risks and hazards the real issue, especially with these chain gang cycle club rides. Bottom line someone is dead who should not be!

The pensioner who stepped in front of me was about 2m away at the time, so to have room to stop in time, I would have needed to have been moving at about 5mph on the bike (and at a similar speed if in a car). I don't see much evidence of anyone travelling around town centres at that sort of speed, and I suspect that the reason is that people weigh cost against benefit rather than seeking the absolute minimum of risk. As I said above, there's no evidence that anyone wants a life with zero risk, and plenty of patently obvious evidence that they don't. If everyone travels at 5mph as in your absolutist view, what happens if someone steps out with less than 2m stopping distance?

We could argue that Celia Ward should have anticipated that Auriol Grey might have startled her as she cycled past, too, or for that matter, the driver should have anticipated the possibility that the cyclist might get startled into falling in front of him. Celia Ward riding at 4.7mph, didn't help her avoid Grey's arm, but it probably did contribute to her losing her balance. What did your advanced driving test teach you about anticipating the possibility of a tyre blowout or brake failure whilst on the motorway? How would you square this need with driving on a road that has a statutory minimum speed limit?

I wasn't taking about mechanical failures here, for which there may be virtually no warning.
Why not, don't old ladies dying because of a tyre blowout count? Or are you just picking which hazards matter according to your own objectives instead of minimising all risks at all costs?
 
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OP
OP
P

PK99

Legendary Member
Location
SW19
Facebook
Muswell Hill Peloton
Core activities:
Saturday mornings anti-clockwise CHAINGANG or PACELINE laps of Regents Park; 'A' group 10 laps; 06.20 meet outside Planet Organic or find in the Park; 'B' group 7 laps; 06:45 meet at Planet Organic or 07.05 a.m on corner of Avenue Road and Outer Circle. It is normally a very fast and disorganised ride down into town. Lights obligatory in winter months; helmets highly advisable.
Sunday morning club runs; depart 08.00 a.m from shop (53 Fortis Green Road). Route/speed normally posted on Saturday (but not always); generally around 80 km.

Anti clockwise,

Given the reports that the pedestrian stepping off the pavement gave zero reaction time, that seems to imply the pace line was very close to the kerb.

Why not center of lane?
 

Legs

usually riding on Zwift...
Location
Staffordshire
This is a busy popular park full of families and people on a day out.
The cyclists should hang their heads in shame and there should be some accountability as road users.
Yes, sadly the woman could and should probably have been more careful when crossing a road that cyclists use as a track to measure their performance, but it still doesn't alter the fact that the MH "Peloton" Club were riding like idiots doing timed laps of a busy, flat inner city circuit surrounding a popular tourist and leisure attraction with parked cars obstructing the views of both them and pedestrians in many places.
Riding in close quarters like a race peloton is dangerous at any time. To do that where pedestrians and tourists are likely to be adds a level. To then ride above the speed a motorised vehicle is allowed to go under the law adds another level since it is deemed too fast for the conditions at that place. Then stopping distance of a peloton group at that speed adds another level of hazard or risk.
Just how busy is Regent's Park at shortly after 7am on a Saturday?
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