Driving in the snow

[Grizzly]

Who dips the clutch when braking,

As soon as the vehicle starts to slide you should dip the clutch and don't touch the brake, this allows each wheel to turn indepedently from each other. The problem in a skid/slide is that your road wheels are rotating across the road surface at a different speed from the vehicle that is moving across the road surface (I'm sure someone will give a better definition), dip the clutch, leave the brakes and turn into the skid and the wheels will regain their grip. If braking in a straight line it is best to lot the engine do as much of the braking as possible, reduce speed early, use the appropriate gear and match the engine revs to the gearbox speed as you change down to reduce the chance of the wheels locking as you re-engage the clutch. In short, be light with all the pedals and keep your momentum up, that way you may even get up a hill.

If this country does not sort out its driving standards then in 10 years we are stuffed, we'll see the roads coming to a halt because of the rain.

 

[GrasB]

As soon as the vehicle starts to slide you should dip the clutch and don't touch the brake, this allows each wheel to turn indepedently from each other. The problem in a skid/slide is that your road wheels are rotating across the road surface at a different speed from the vehicle that is moving across the road surface (I'm sure someone will give a better definition), dip the clutch, leave the brakes and turn into the skid and the wheels will regain their grip. If braking in a straight line it is best to lot the engine do as much of the braking as possible, reduce speed early, use the appropriate gear and match the engine revs to the gearbox speed as you change down to reduce the chance of the wheels locking as you re-engage the clutch. In short, be light with all the pedals and keep your momentum up, that way you may even get up a hill.

If this country does not sort out its driving standards then in 10 years we are stuffed, we'll see the roads coming to a halt because of the rain.

Really does depend on the car. My lotus responds well to something like that but try that with my Alfa & it'll spin you like a top.

 

[Linford]

Got to be gentle with the controls, and use a very low gear when descending the gradients and let the engine braking do the work, going up the other way, need a bit of a run up. If you are on an ice sheet, and experience a total lockup - and are going too farst, there is little you can do as even turning into the skid, if you are carrying that momentum will not be able to scrub it off.
I've played around with drifting in 2wd, 4wd, and with the diffs locked, and it is fun on the flat, but you never practice it in a place were there is no run off - or on a slope.

 

[jonesy]

I think we can all agree that the most effective weapon in the arsenal of road safety is improvements in the construction of vehicles (most people dying on the roads tending to be the occupants of them). The down side of this is the improvements to the structure creating massive blind spots in the vision, and consequentially a lot more SMIDSY's....

I rather suspect we won't all agree on that! Accident prevention comes first in workplace H&S, should be just the same on the roads...

 

[Linford]

I rather suspect we won't all agree on that! Accident prevention comes first in workplace H&S, should be just the same on the roads...

I would be disinclined to say that the standard of driving has improved massively, but the KSI's are falling whilst the numbers ont he roads are increasing.
No amount of training will have any effect if the driver/rider doesn't apply it.

 

[Linford]

I rather suspect we won't all agree on that! Accident prevention comes first in workplace H&S, should be just the same on the roads...

I read something this morning in relation to claims by the IAM which made me re-visit this notion Jonsey.

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/General-news/2012/February/feb0612-iams-unfair-claims-over-bike-safety/?http://www.motorcyclenews.com/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=emailnl&utm_campaign=MCNMCN%20Newsletter%20Feb%207%202012%20(1)

They have made some claims which basically amount to Pedestrians, Cyclists, and Motorcyclists are all becoming higher risk groups, whilst driving has seen a substantial decrease in the numbers of KSI's in the UK.

My own theory as previously stated on this is that the KSI's in the former groups are rising because of the massive A pillars on modern cars which are decreasing visibility for the drivers and this is increasing the SMIDSY's - no stats on the causes have been debated, but then possibly because they are in litigation.
Whilst the car users are enjoying safer driving simply because they are better protected with their 5 star EuroNCAP vehicles with the same self massive A pillars which hide the rest of the road users so well.

What say you ?

 

[GrasB]

I think there are 2 things going on here, one is a thick A pillar, however there's also a tendency towards a highly raked windscreen. That's more the problem in a Citroen C5, the pillar it's self isn't that thick but the angle means that it's effectively much much thicker than it is. Of course the shallow rake windscreens make the A pillar protruded further forwards which makes them harder to look around.

 

[GrasB]

[QUOTE 1712448, member: 45"]Our 3-cyclinder, 1L, £35/year VED Charade is still pretty much unstoppable in the snow. More than can be said for the BMWs and Mercs doing the sideways ballet backwards on our road on Saturday.[/quote]
The main reason is that in probability your low end car still uses a throttle cable. The luxury cars will have a FBW system that works on a 'perceptual' basis. This means at low rpm & in higher gears they will be opening the throttle 70% or 80% when you ask for 10% throttle. This makes the car seem really responsive & fast on dry roads but makes it almost undrivable in extremely low grip conditions.

 

[Linford]

The main reason is that in probability your low end car still uses a throttle cable. The luxury cars will have a FBW system that works on a 'perceptual' basis. This means at low rpm & in higher gears they will be opening the throttle 70% or 80% when you ask for 10% throttle. This makes the car seem really responsive & fast on dry roads but makes it almost undrivable in extremely low grip conditions.

My mate had a Charade GTTi. I drove it a couple of times and it was a real flying machine. Handling wasn't brilliant and it drank the fuel though, but was a lot of fun.

 

[GrasB]

You mean something like this?

 

[GrasB]

[QUOTE 1714936, member: 45"]No, it's more to do with fwd, low weight and skinny tyres. And a decent driver.[/quote]
All of which are completely moot if you gently press the throttle through 5% of it's motion & the ECU decides to give 85% throttle. This is what modern ECUs do & means that there's absolutely nothing you can do. This is why you can drive an old-school 450bhp TVR which is way lighter than these modern RWD cars but has just as much power & torque without much problem if you're smooth & gentle.

 

[Linford]

You mean something like this?
View attachment 6903

That is the one

 

[Linford]

Traction control's & ABS are also useless on the ice.

A colleague of mine has a Beemer 330d, and he got caught on the slip road out of the industrial estate last year which has the most shallow of gradients (more of a camber than anything else). They are spectacularly poor in snow and ice.

 

[GrasB]

Traction control's & ABS are also useless on the ice.

Which leads to a further problem with some modern cars. When one uses the throttle & brakes at the same time power is cut from the engine I tried to drive an Ibiza out of an icy car park last year. Light sustained application of the brakes to keep the front wheels in check & after a few seconds the engine would cut out. Thought it was clutch control at the time so tried a bit of throttle when in neutral & applying the brakes after the same period the engine would just turn off. Had to get my car to drag it out the car park for the only reason that the engine cut out when you applied both throttle & breaks for sustained periods

 

[Bicycle]

I spent a few winters living in the Balkans, where it is both hilly and (in winter) chilly.

Most cars were FWD or 4x4, but people just did OK on snow. There was usually a lot of snow from late December to March.

As has been said before on this thread, the trick is to be smooth with all inputs and to avoid very low gears. We had some Hi-Lux pick-ups sans diff locks and very light at the rear. A bag of sand in the load area kept the rears gripping. It sounds silly to make a vehicle heavier for snow, but without the extra weight there was simply no rear grip.

Winter tyres or chains were mandatory from October to April. That made a big difference.

I had various 4x4 things for work, but my own car was an ancient petrol Jetta. Totally unsuitable for winter, but it bobbled along nicely enough. The office had an automatic Sierra with an oversensitive kickdown. Best not to take that up into the mountains in the snow.....

I'm not sure it's fair to be beastly about British motorists who can't handle the conditions. No-one is born knowing this stuff and it very rarely gets cold enough here to learn it. As a youngster I used to practise on the truck-turning circles of industrial estates, but that wasn't about being a conscientious driver - it was just for some cheap fun.