Emma Foa's death-verdict announced

[Cab]

It's apparently easy to be a smartarse and say the cyclist shouldn't have done what she did but her 'misdemeanour' was never likely to result in someone else's death.

I agree. Although I wouldn't say its a smartarse thing to do, its repeating an important safety message; don't go kerbside of a big vehicle where the driver may not be able to see you. I don't think we can possibly repeat that too often.

The fact remains that the driver was in charge of a potentially very dangerous vehicle and saw fit to 'look for paperwork in his truck'. The sentence is hardly going to send a strong message to the many others who believe driving is merely a peripheral activity.

I agree with that too, although I don't believe that its the duty of a court to always be sending out messages. I don't know whether the guy could have seen her; do you?

 

[Cab]

the cyclists may have been in a blind spot

As Buffalo Bill points out, no legal compunction exists for lorry drivers to have extended mirrors fitted. Thorn's lorry did not have these £80-£100 mirrors fitted and judging by this case Thorn could kill three cyclists over ten years and still it would be cheaper than fitting the mirrors. Anyone who thinks this is fair is a buffoon.

Fair? FAIR? Who said anything about it being fair?

I agree that there should be a law stating that such vehicles must have mirrors like that fitted. There isn't currently such a law though. Until there is, it'll be very easy for cyclists to filter into the blind spot of a big vehicle like that, and as a result they'll die. Fair? Hell no. Doesn't mean that the bloke could have done anything about it, or that he broke the law. Faffing about with paperwork, he's in the wrong. Would he have avoided her otherwise? Do you know the answer to that? I don't.

 

[magnatom]

They're under starter's orders....and they're off!!

I'm involved with enough debating at the moment. I think I will drift out of this one....

 

[Elmer Fudd]

I've always worked on the principle that if I can't see the drivers face in his nearside mirror, stop, because he can't see me.

 

[col]

It is a difficult one to work out,but the driver should have been aware of what was around him.Blind spots are known,so should be doubly checked.Looking at paperwork while at a junction(anytime really) is a big no no,and it shows in my opinion,that he wasnt paying full attention to the road.So i agree with spindrif.Also,the resulting fine is in reality not a very good deterent to unatentive drivers,aspecially when something this awful happens.We all get into situations where we wish we hadnt,mistakes happen,but a cyclist in a blind spot possibly,next to a left turning vehicle at a junction, shouldnt be punished by injury or death.Due to the driver not checking thoughrouly,and being distracted by something that could be looked at in a safer place,i have to put blame on the driver,given these reasons.Now im taking it for granted that he didnt do it on purpose,so the word accident crops up,but an accident that could have been avoided by the driver,and also by the cyclist.Again,its just an opinion on what iv read so far.

 

[Cab]

It is a difficult one to work out,but the driver should have been aware of what was around him.Blind spots are known,so should be doubly checked.

Check all you like. Its a blind spot, you can't see it.

Looking at paperwork while at a junction(anytime really) is a big no no,and it shows in my opinion,that he wasnt paying full attention to the road.

I am confident that no one here has, or would, disagree with that.

 

[spindrift]

Would he have avoided her otherwise? Do you know the answer to that?



I know an answer as to whether Emma's death was avoidable.

When someone is in charge of twenty tons of metal on public roads it is beholden on him to ensure he is driving safely. It is entirely forseeable that cyclists will be on the road. Thorn did not check whether anyone was on his nearside and admitted to being distracted when he killed Emma.


Fairness has everything to do with it since in any cyclist v twenty ton vehilce collision it is obvious who will come off worse and it is obvious upon whom the greater responsibility lies.


Thorn is a killer driver who has been allowed to keep driving. This is the reality.

 

[spindrift]

Check all you like. Its a blind spot, you can't see it.

You can if you bother to fit proper mirrors. Thorn or his employer didn't bother. Many lorries are driving round London with the drivers having bugger all idea whether their next turn will kill someone, let's keep focussed on that fact rather than any culpability on Emma's part.

 

[col]

Check all you like. Its a blind spot, you can't see it.



I am confident that no one here has, or would, disagree with that.

I didnt word that very well,sorry.But you can check blindspots by Physically moving in the cab,which makes it not a blind spot,if you know what i mean.

 

[habibi]

Emma's husband and his daughters had turned up at court a few weeks ago to be told that the case would be heard on October 3.

http://www.thecnj.co.uk/camden/092007/news092007_04.html

“We made emotional space for that date, but I received a call this morning from a police officer telling me the case was settled,” he said.

Typical really, isn't it. Wouldn't want upset and grieving relatives messing up a routine points and fine outcome, would we? Best they aren't in attendance. Might hold up the rest of the day's proceedings. Give them a quick call after the event.

£300 and five points for a driver's inattention causing death is a disgrace.

To suggest the cyclist was at fault is irrelevant. They were both stationary at a junction, ffs. The lorry driver didn't check it was safe to turn before manoevering.

 

[Rhythm Thief]

I've always worked on the principle that if I can't see the drivers face in his nearside mirror, stop, because he can't see me.

Very wise.

 

[spindrift]

But still cyclists are being killed by lorries. Last year, Harriet Tory was killed by a left turning lorry on Clerkenwell Road, and Conrad Dutoit was killed in the Pancras Way bike lane by a right turning lorry. The lorry driver who killed him, Mr Ibrahim, was found guilty of ‘Driving Without Due Care And Attention’ (ie he didn’t look before turning) and ‘Driving Other Than In Accordance With A Licence’ (ie he wasn’t licensed to drive the category of lorry that he crushed Conrad to death with), fined £500, plus £250 costs and disqualified for 56 days. Patricia Macmillan was also killed last year by a turning lorry in West London, but the media managed to blame her iPod instead. And these three, remember, are only the ones that I have personally heard about. If the number of cyclists killed in London remains at the same level as 2004, 14, then there are at least another 3 that I haven’t heard about, seeing as most years lorries account for nearly half of cyclists killed in London.

My personal experience is that lorry drivers , especially skip and tipper drivers, are homicidal maniacs.

 

[Cab]

I know an answer as to whether Emma's death was avoidable.

That isn't what I asked you.

When someone is in charge of twenty tons of metal on public roads it is beholden on him to ensure he is driving safely. It is entirely forseeable that cyclists will be on the road. Thorn did not check whether anyone was on his nearside and admitted to being distracted when he killed Emma.

And if he checked, do you know whether he could have seen her? Yes or no.

Fairness has everything to do with it since in any cyclist v twenty ton vehilce collision it is obvious who will come off worse and it is obvious upon whom the greater responsibility lies.

Fairness has nothing to do with it, its a court case and it is about legality. Get used to it.

Thorn is a killer driver who has been allowed to keep driving. This is the reality.

Indeed, he drove, she died. Do you know that he didn't look? Do you know that if he did look, he would have seen her? Bluntly, do you know whether or not she cycled into a blind spot that he couldn't see into? Yes or no.

 

[Cab]

You can if you bother to fit proper mirrors.

Then campaign for those to be mandatory. I'm in favour of that. Till that point, keep the hell out of blind spots.

 

[Cab]

I didnt word that very well,sorry.But you can check blindspots by Physically moving in the cab,which makes it not a blind spot,if you know what i mean.

I'm not sure thats true of a big cement mixer. Are you?