Female tennis players at Wimbledon.

[ttcycle]

Ay, there's the rub.

I think the implication which rankles the most is that women are not guilty of watching a sport simply "to perve" on sportsmen. It happens; men and women both do it. I don't really see why it's a problem. However, feminist discourse can, at times, seem to penalise men and vindicate women for engaging in ostensibly the same activity.

I don't think it's wrong for a person - man or woman - to look at a sportsman (for example) and think "He's attractive." We all accept that it is his beauty which is being objectified in this instance. Nobody looks at a sportsman's body and immediately thinks "He's so handsome because he's a considerate father."

Noticing someone's attractiveness is not the issue on it's own but if it's the only thing that is mentioned about a person then is that all they are really about. It's the 'I would do her' comments that become actually quite puerile. It's almost acceptable in certain spheres and demonstrates a lack of respect. I for sure know women who do the same towards other men and women, so it's not just men who do it but the numbers can be higher. There have been posts which have come up in cafe where a woman was praised for her attractiveness and many comments followed about how she was shaggable - this was BORING and it seemed like the forum was inhabited by 15 year old pubescent boys. Any reference to a man in that thread was about how good or not they were at their profession. If women could be looked upon in the first instance in the same way for what they did I would be quite shocked but they are firstly rated on their attractiveness and sexual allure to a male audience. Not cool at all and too pervasive in society.

 

[Dayvo]

Impeccable timing, Dayvo!

Must be the 'love all' philosophy I, er, believe in!

 

[Fab Foodie]

Don't martial arts experts let out a grunt or something when they strike, for that very reason?

I do the same during sex ...






Oh, strike, sorry

 

[Speicher]

This is what I like to watch: Beach Volleyball, Brazil v Brazil

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=QxxwsJrwads

Why can't the men just wear swimsuits like the women do?


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKqLrw7SnVk&feature=relmfu

 

[Adasta]

I for sure know women who do the same towards other men and women, so it's not just men who do it but the numbers can be higher.

I totally agree.

If women could be looked upon in the first instance in the same way for what they did I would be quite shocked but they are firstly rated on their attractiveness and sexual allure to a male audience. Not cool at all and too pervasive in society.

It'd be great if women themselves didn't perpetuate this image! If there's one gender that fetishes women, it's women! Women-specific magazines etc. are terrible; the level of vitriol is shocking.

I think the problem with the male reaction is that it is so pervasive. It's a bit one-sided to say that women are rated by their attractiveness; while true, men are rated for their decisiveness, strength and decision-making ability. This is probably the wrong place to go into gender stereotyping from birth, but I think a more "intellectually inclusive" take on Feminism would be really beneficial.

The best course of action for men that are, in the moment, acting like boys is just to leave them to it. I'm as guilty as anyone, of course. I'm just not sure if chastising them/us would get a truly meaningful behavioural response.

 

[ttcycle]

No, it's not chastising as that is purely pointless but pointing out and discussing the issue is a useful one. What do you mean by intellectually inclusive take on feminism? Feminism itself is as broad a classification as leftist politics.There is no decisive opinion and it isn't as many people believe about hating men. Besides isn't it for those involved in the movement to decide for themselves what they believe? In all areas you get intellectually flabby tendencies with widest contradictions as people involved.

Having worked in publishing of those magazines you mention - I think what you hark back to re gender stereotypes from early socialisations - this does play a large part. However, in some ways appearance/fashion are seen as dominant topics (is it a case of the chicken and egg - what comes first being told to do something because you should or because it's relevant to the group)

No easy answers at all.

 

[Adasta]

Feminism itself is as broad a classification as leftist politics.There is no decisive opinion and it isn't as many people believe about hating men. Besides isn't it for those involved in the movement to decide for themselves what they believe? In all areas you get intellectually flabby tendencies with widest contradictions as people involved.

You're right, feminism is so massive/ill-defined it's hard not to offend someone when you speak about it! What I meant was that I would really like it if men - when discussed in feminist discourse - were discussed as male beings rather than objectified as naughty boys or drooling apes. I suppose it all depends on the aims of Feminism and on the feminist; I've been in classes etc. where being a man was enough to be an enemy of Feminism. I can't abide that sort of reasoning!

Having worked in publishing of those magazines you mention - I think what you hark back to re gender stereotypes from early socialisations - this does play a large part. However, in some ways appearance/fashion are seen as dominant topics (is it a case of the chicken and egg - what comes first being told to do something because you should or because it's relevant to the group)

No easy answers at all.

Yeh, this is a problem. Both sexes naturally want to highlight their differences to the other sex; therein lies the attraction, I suppose. How far should women go to promote their femininity? And what is feminity to begin with? Difficult questions indeed, but I think ones than can be debated more beneficially with at least some input from men.

 

[ttcycle]

You're right, feminism is so massive/ill-defined it's hard not to offend someone when you speak about it! What I meant was that I would really like it if men - when discussed in feminist discourse - were discussed as male beings rather than objectified as naughty boys or drooling apes. I suppose it all depends on the aims of Feminism and on the feminist; I've been in classes etc. where being a man was enough to be an enemy of Feminism. I can't abide that sort of reasoning!



Yeh, this is a problem. Both sexes naturally want to highlight their differences to the other sex; therein lies the attraction, I suppose. How far should women go to promote their femininity? And what is feminity to begin with? Difficult questions indeed, but I think ones than can be debated more beneficially with at least some input from men.

some people would disagree with differences and that in itself is a constructed gender stereotype...

lol however, as is the case in politics gender or otherwise, the people you come across are so broad and varied - the way that people act and believe can vary and the way that people express themselves and their ideas varies as well. Consensus? Right/Wrong?

 

[ttcycle]

[QUOTE 1445351"]
What about a Take That gig? People surely can't be going to hear them sing??
[/quote]

lol- brilliant!

 

[mangaman]

You're right, feminism is so massive/ill-defined it's hard not to offend someone when you speak about it! What I meant was that I would really like it if men - when discussed in feminist discourse - were discussed as male beings rather than objectified as naughty boys or drooling apes. I suppose it all depends on the aims of Feminism and on the feminist; I've been in classes etc. where being a man was enough to be an enemy of Feminism. I can't abide that sort of reasoning!

With exceptions, in the West we've had "masculinism" - ie an assumption of power and influence by men for thousands of years.

We've had a minor backlash from women that's affected few for 40 odd years.

I'm a man, but even in these supposedly feminist-driven times women are much more likely to be objectified than men in my experience in every way.

 

[Vapin' Joe]

With exceptions, in the West we've had "masculinism" - ie an assumption of power and influence by men for thousands of years.

We've had a minor backlash from women that's affected few for 40 odd years.

I'm a man, but even in these supposedly feminist-driven times women are much more likely to be objectified than men in my experience in every way.

I get very fed up with being treated as a sex object by women. I'm not just a plaything, I have feelings too.

 

[snailracer]

I don't know many men who would dislike being "objectified" - perhaps women should deal with it better!

 

[Adasta]

With exceptions, in the West we've had "masculinism" - ie an assumption of power and influence by men for thousands of years.

We've had a minor backlash from women that's affected few for 40 odd years.

I'm a man, but even in these supposedly feminist-driven times women are much more likely to be objectified than men in my experience in every way.

Undoubtedly, but I don't think the "Feminist cause" is furthered by what I pointed out.

I know that isn't what you were saying, but I think it's useful to note that backlash for backlash's sake isn't constructive. If Feminism is the act of being and/or defining "woman", then that's great. It gets a bit murkier when gender war gets in to it. I'm not sure if fighting for change while using "the tools of the oppressor" is an effective strategy. Denigrating men because they denigrate, or have denigrated, women seems a bit...silly.

As a side note, I'd be interested to see the differing attitudes to women between the generations. Although it's not perfect, I think significant improvements/advancements have been made in my generation's thinking of women and men's relationships to them . Every manager I've ever had has been a woman - it's normal for women to be in position's of authority in the workplace, for example. I don't think that would've been the case for people that grew in the 60s or 70s.

 

[ttcycle]

Undoubtedly, but I don't think the "Feminist cause" is furthered by what I pointed out.

I know that isn't what you were saying, but I think it's useful to note that backlash for backlash's sake isn't constructive. If Feminism is the act of being and/or defining "woman", then that's great. It gets a bit murkier when gender war gets in to it. I'm not sure if fighting for change while using "the tools of the oppressor" is an effective strategy. Denigrating men because they denigrate, or have denigrated, women seems a bit...silly.

As a side note, I'd be interested to see the differing attitudes to women between the generations. Although it's not perfect, I think significant improvements/advancements have been made in my generation's thinking of women and men's relationships to them . Every manager I've ever had has been a woman - it's normal for women to be in position's of authority in the workplace, for example. I don't think that would've been the case for people that grew in the 60s or 70s.

I do think that your generalisation that a majority of feminists denigrate men is not really actually true. It's just entirely unhelpful.

 

[mangaman]

I get very fed up with being treated as a sex object by women. I'm not just a plaything, I have feelings too.

Yeah but you're a special case SJ