Flat bar brake levers more better than drop bar brifters for cantilever brakes?

[scotsbikester]

My experience with STI drop bar "brifters" and canti brakes wasn't wonderful. I did as many adjustments as I could, bought Cool Stop pads and so on. But was still underwhelmed. I think part of it is that you just can't get as firm a grip on drop bar levers.

I know canti specific flat bar levers are available - do they give a more reassuring braking experience? Because of better gripabiity?

(yes, I know that is a whole different bike set up, I would do this as a conversion on a cheapish used bike, something like am old Dawes Galaxy/Claude Butler)

Thanks.

 

[T4tomo]

Nah you just haven't set them up properly, straddle angles etc. See you tube for advice.

 

[Jameshow]

You need mini v brakes to work with road sti levers.

 

[C R]

You need mini v brakes to work with road sti levers.

I'm pretty sure cantis are also compatible with road drop bar brake levers.

 

[scotsbikester]

You need mini v brakes to work with road sti levers.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not talking about v brakes, whether full size or mini, with road STI levers.

I'm asking about using flat bar levers, with cantilever brakes. Here's why:

I have a bike with cantilever brakes and drop bar STI style levers. I didn't find the levers particularly effective. In fact I found the cross top levers which are fitted on the same bike more effective. Though I don't ride that bike these days.

My usual bike has drop bars, STI levers, and BB7 cable disc brakes. That is fine, though the cross top levers that are also fitted to that bike feel better too, in terms of pure stopping power, especially in a potential emergency. Though with the obvious caveat of the danger of locking the front wheel, and also they are not situated in the normal hand position.

I think that the difference in hand position makes flat bar levers better. You can quite simply get better purchase on the lever than you can on a STI style lever. Especially if you have smallish hands, as I do.

What I am considering making is a cheapish commuter/shopper, but from a second hand bike. The older bikes I am looking at are things like a Dawes Galaxy/Claude Butler touring type bike. Because they will have the geometry I like (long wheelbase, long chain stays, low BB) and also all the braze-ons I need, for rack, mudguards etc. I have a huge stock of NOS/lightly used 9x3 Shimano parts. Front derailleurs, rear derailleurs, UN55/72/73 bottom brackets and so on. So I can probably renovate where necessary. However, most of the used bikes I'm considering have cantilever brakes. Which in my experience are not so good. And for a "runaround" bike a flat bar bike might be better. I have managed to pick up, for £16, a pair of the Shimano 9x3 flat bar road shifters, so have the right shifters. But would need to change to flat bar levers.

I hope that's clear.

 

[wafter]

*more betterer

Broadly speaking cantis should like the same cable pull ratio as other road-based brakes - road-specific mechanical disc calipers and rim brake calipers while v-brakes require more cable to be pulled and corresponding brake levers.

When you say "STI style" shifters, do you mean they do the gears as well or are just drop bar brake levers with shifting handled elsewhere? If it's the latter it could be that you have fitted some of the few drop levers designed to work with V-brakes, so they're not working well with cantis. If they're actual STIs they should all be "road pull" so on paper should be compatable with cantis.

Another possibility as you suggest is ergonomics - I have shortish fingers and often find the reach to STIs excessive; reducing the amount of force I can apply.

While I've long considered converting drops to flat bars heresy, the Brompton has taught me the value in an urban environment of the upright position and potentially more immediate / controlled shifting afforded by flat bars so if you'll be operating in similar the swap is certainly worth considering.

On top of that, if you do find the cantis problematic you can potentially swap to V-brakes - which would require different brake levers but you should have more choice in this respect if running flat bars and separate shifters.

 

[scotsbikester]

*more betterer

Broadly speaking cantis should like the same cable pull ratio as other road-based brakes - road-specific mechanical disc calipers and rim brake calipers while v-brakes require more cable to be pulled and corresponding brake levers.

When you say "STI style" shifters, do you mean they do the gears as well or are just drop bar brake levers with shifting handled elsewhere? If it's the latter it could be that you have fitted some of the few drop levers designed to work with V-brakes, so they're not working well with cantis. If they're actual STIs they should all be "road pull" so on paper should be compatable with cantis.

Another possibility as you suggest is ergonomics - I have shortish fingers and often find the reach to STIs excessive; reducing the amount of force I can apply.

While I've long considered converting drops to flat bars heresy, the Brompton has taught me the value in an urban environment of the upright position and potentially more immediate / controlled shifting afforded by flat bars so if you'll be operating in similar the swap is certainly worth considering.

On top of that, if you do find the cantis problematic you can potentially swap to V-brakes - which would require different brake levers but you should have more choice in this respect if running flat bars and separate shifters.

The reason I said STI style is that the levers on the bike that has cantilever brakes on are not actually Shimano levers, and in fact they operate as brake levers, but only the right one is a gear shifter. This is on a very very unusual bike that has an Alfine 8 speed hub gear. I bought the bike thinking it was "the one", because I wanted a tourer shaped thing, but with hub gears, because that was what I was used to. Since then I've built a 9x3 derailleur thing, which I love. And don't want to get nicked, which is part of the reason for a cheapish "city bike" project.

It could well be that part of the reason for the poor braking performance is the (let's call them) integrated brake levers/shifter (singular). I think they're made by some obscure outfit called "Sussex". Who are actually in Taiwan, maybe. Anyways, they don't operate very well as shifters, so perhaps the poor design extends to their braking performance too.

It could be that that bike becomes the "city bike", though being prepared for rear punctures on a hub gear bike is a bit more awkward. You need a thing to unhook the cable from the hub, and a 15 mm spanner, and it takes a bit to get the wheel back in straight. It's way more awkward than getting a wheel out on a derailleur bike, trust me, I've done both. On a cold rainy night you need that to be as simple as possible. Especially in work clothes.

Yes, the small hands, weak grip, extended reach is very much part of the issue here. Perhaps even the main issue.

 

[T4tomo]

If you have changed to flat bars, get normal flat brake levers and fit full size V brakes to the mounting posts, they take canti's or V brakes, and a set of V brakes can be had for cheap as chips money

The only reason you would use canti brakes is if you were restricted to drop bar STI levers.

 

[wafter]

If you have changed to flat bars, get normal flat brake levers and fit full size V brakes to the mounting posts, they take canti's or brakes, and a set of V brakes can be had for cheap as chips money

The only reason you would use canti brakes is if you were restricted to drop bar STI levers.

I'd question the supposition that one lever will cater for both cantis and V-brakes since they each have significantly different pull ratios..

 

[T4tomo]

I'd question the supposition that one lever will cater for both cantis and V-brakes since they each have significantly different pull ratios..

That wasn't the supposition though was it?...read again carefully: the mounting posts accommodate both types

 

[wafter]

That wasn't the supposition though was it?...read again carefully: the mounting posts accommodate both types

That's how I read it and I'd suggest it's ambiguous at best, since it makes no distinction between the need for different types of flat-bar levers to accomodate the V-brakes you're suggesting are fitted or the cantis they'd presumably be replacing..

 

[scotsbikester]

If you have changed to flat bars, get normal flat brake levers and fit full size V brakes to the mounting posts, they take canti's or brakes, and a set of V brakes can be had for cheap as chips money

The only reason you would use canti brakes is if you were restricted to drop bar STI levers.

Thanks. Not sure what you mean by "they take canti's (sic) or brakes".

I don't like the look of V brakes, personally. But that's just me.

I'm wondering, have you ever done that? Mounted V brakes on posts that originally held cantilever brakes?

 

[Gunk]

Nah you just haven't set them up properly, straddle angles etc. See you tube for advice.

I agree, I run TRP Canti’s with Dura Ace Brifters and no issues. They stop as well as a decent dual pivot set up. However they do need some time and patience to get them set up properly, there is almost too much adjustment.

 

[T4tomo]

I'm wondering, have you ever done that? Mounted V brakes on posts that originally held cantilever brakes?

Sort of. I bought an old CX frame that had originally been converted from drop bars and canti brakes to flat bars and V brakes. We ran it like that for a while and then I converted it back to drop bars and some new canti's.

Obviously it's key to make sure you have the correct levers for the type of brakes as they are different pull ratios.

Not sure what you mean by "they take canti's (sic) or brakes".

Sorry I should have said the mounting posts take canti's or V brakes

 

[C R]

Thanks. Not sure what you mean by "they take canti's (sic) or brakes".

I don't like the look of V brakes, personally. But that's just me.

I'm wondering, have you ever done that? Mounted V brakes on posts that originally held cantilever brakes?

I have replaced cantis with Vs and know others who have too. The posts are the same, the levers are different.