Gadaffi

[jonny jeez]

Have you never heard of the term realpolitik?
If everyone took your principled viewpoint, we would never have teamed up with Stalin in WW2 and the world would be run by Nazis.
Moreover, if a thief stole your bike, you would have to simultaneously arrest all bike thieves at the same time to avoid being accused of pick-and-choose.

No I haven’t, but you are missing the point.

Why is it that we rely on the media to make up our minds. I don’t need CNN to tell me that your singular bike thief needs punishing, I am intelligent enough to arrive at that conclusion myself from the information I have at the time....because I was there.

Why is it that one moment these people are the good guys, the next they are hated. They didn’t change their behaviour overnight, so why did our perception change so quickly…Why are we not able to draw our own conclusion...Why do we not have sufficient information to do so…surely their public image is not controlled to suit other agendas...surely we in the “civilised world” don’t suffer from propaganda… do we.

That said, my “own” conclusion is that Gadaffi is (and always has been)…a person who does not deserve to control the power that he did and should have been punished for crimes against his own people (if not others).

Unfortunately he is not alone.

 

[snailracer]

...Why is it that we rely on the media to make up our minds....

Do we? Some do. I don't.

...Why is it that one moment these people are the good guys, the next they are hated. They didn’t change their behaviour overnight, so why did our perception change so quickly…Why are we not able to draw our own conclusion...Why do we not have sufficient information to do so…surely their public image is not controlled to suit other agendas...surely we in the “civilised world” don’t suffer from propaganda… do we...

It's mostly lazy journalism - the complexity of any situation cannot possibly be conveyed in a 2-minute segment on the TV news. If someone takes news stories as gospel, then they are fools.

I don't think there is a general propaganda conspiracy going on, however some news sources have a target audience, and the mindset of that audience affects how stories are covered and analysed. CNN's target audience is American businessmen - therefore the stories are analysed from a right-wing viewpoint (as observed from my viewpoint ).

Gadaffi was a longstanding opponent of the West who came in from the cold - surely that was a positive development for world peace western security, regardless of how the Libyan people or others felt about him.

 

[montyboy]

I've no doubt you have lived in the middle east but "The Arab psyche"?? - what thats bullsh1t, Empire was over years ago mate, move on.

I'll tell you what Simon, you do talk some rubbish!

Do you even read my posts before you comment or is it that you just dont undertsand them?

The point I was making was that there are significant cultural differences between the middle east and the UK, nothing to do with the "Empire". The arab world does not have a long history of fairness and democracy and 90% of the rulers have obtained and retain power through force. I include Syria, Lybia, Irac, Bahrain, Dubai etc. This is remember an area of the world where stoning women is considered acceptable by many.

Interesting to note that now the new regime is in control we are discovering bodies of Gaddaffi supporters who have been executed. Capturing and executing people constitutes a war crime.

I am not saying its wrong or right, I am just saying I just suspect that in years to come we may discover that have just changed one unpleasant regime for another. Remember it was the west that put Saddam in power in Iraq and how we supported the Taliban (we changed the name from Mujahadeen so nobody would remember) when those nasty Russians took on Afganhistan all those years ago.

Only time will tell.

 

[Moodyman]

Gadaffi was a longstanding opponent of the West who came in from the cold

Gadaffi was the darling of the Foreign Office and Washington when he kicked King Idris out. Then he became a pariah for stirring trouble in the Organisaton of Islamic Countries.

Then, when BP et al wanted access to Libyan oil fields, he became our mate for rejecting nukes.

Now that all the oil deals have been finalised, we used the protests to ignite further trouble and get rid of him.

Then we wonder why the rest of the world can't stand our hypocrisy.

 

[snailracer]

Gadaffi was the darling of the Foreign Office and Washington when he kicked King Idris out. Then he became a pariah for stirring trouble in the Organisaton of Islamic Countries.

Then, when BP et al wanted access to Libyan oil fields, he became our mate for rejecting nukes.

Now that all the oil deals have been finalised, we used the protests to ignite further trouble and get rid of him.

Then we wonder why the rest of the world can't stand our hypocrisy.

So if you were in charge, you would only deal with people with clean hands? That would be almost nobody, then.

Gadaffi switched allegiances between many groupings during his long rule, which meant he had no friends, only interests. Many of our western "allies" (France, Germany, Spain, USA) were once our enemies - shifting allegiances are the norm in international affairs - so what is your threshold for hypocrisy?

I also don't think the FO is clever enough to have orchestrated his elimination - I give credit for the Arab Spring to the Arabs themselves.

 

[Mad at urage]

I'll tell you what Simon, you do talk some rubbish!

Do you even read my posts before you comment or is it that you just dont undertsand them?

The point I was making was that there are significant cultural differences between the middle east and the UK, nothing to do with the "Empire". The arab world does not have a long history of fairness and democracy and 90% of the rulers have obtained and retain power through force. I include Syria, Lybia, Irac, Bahrain, Dubai etc. This is remember an area of the world where stoning women is considered acceptable by many.

Interesting to note that now the new regime is in control we are discovering bodies of Gaddaffi supporters who have been executed. Capturing and executing people constitutes a war crime.

I am not saying its wrong or right, I am just saying I just suspect that in years to come we may discover that have just changed one unpleasant regime for another. Remember it was the west that put Saddam in power in Iraq and how we supported the Taliban (we changed the name from Mujahadeen so nobody would remember) when those nasty Russians took on Afganhistan all those years ago.

Only time will tell.

To the currently dominant western psyche and according to laws voted as "International Law" by (predominantly) Western nations: Neo-imperialism?

 

[montyboy]

To the currently dominant western psyche and according to laws voted as "International Law" by (predominantly) Western nations: Neo-imperialism?

Are you actually makinh a point here?