Geometry issues

[Monsieur Remings]

I have an older road bike which I am poised to turn into a winter affair. In fact the old head is so full of conundrums I'm wondering what other cyclechatters may wish to contribute...

I'm a member at the local gym, the bike is a good training tool but I'm piss bored with it now. I need to, put bluntly, put some serious road training in over the winter but I'm resigned to the fact that miserable weather is upon us and I do not want to hasten the age of my newish carbon purchased earlier this year, preferring as with many cyclists to have a hack/winter bike for the poor weather, in theory at least. Mudguards, decent set of lights and winter, waterproof clothing here I come..?

Yes, but, along with other confusions clogging my mind like buying an MTB for muddy days, the option of keeping the gym on for crappy weather etc I have the added annoyance that when I initially changed from my Giant Defy 3 to my Ribble Sportive it took a while to adjust from what is essentially a very laid back geometry on the Giant to the more racey geometry of the Ribble Sportive. If, on crappy days, I train on the Giant I am, or am I more likely to experience that hassle again? What are other cyclechatters experiences of switching between different geometries and the ability of the body to adapt? I'm very comfortable on the Ribble now and am worried that switching back over the winter may upset this?

My excitable 15 year old ego says buy an MTB, go on, go on, go on! But I'm a full-time Daddy again now and don't have that extra day in the saddle I did over the summer. When I'm not full-time with the babes, I'm working, leaving only sundays, the odd thursday morning and nights. Do I have the time for trail riding, calling everybody 'dude' and opening up a separate chapter in my limited pedalling hours?

My more pragmatic side says do not stray from the road, buy some proper garments, mudguards and ignore the fact that it's pissing down with rain. But, do I need a separate winter set-up given the previous hassles with geometry and back pain?

What you all think?

As always thanks for any input.

 

[Black Sheep]

I can happily ride home on my road bike and get straight onto my mountain bike (with a shoe change from SPD's to trainers in-between) without problems

the only issue I have is my legs spinning madly but that's down to a lower single gear on the mountain bike, which has quite a sat up geometry.

I can happily hop onto and off dutch style bikes without problems - it's a bit like getting out of one car and into another, you take a moment or two to settle into the driving / riding position and then continue on your way.

 

[MacB]

Always depends on what you want to spend but either way I think a Winter rig, whether via additions to an existing bike or an entirely seperate machine, is a good idea. Geometry is fairly easy to transfer around if you're meticulous about it, so measure everything on your favoured setup. The bits you're trying to keep the same are the saddle/pedal relationship first followed by saddle to bars second. Take the following measurements:-

centre of the BB to a point on the saddle along the line of the seatpost
stand bike with back wheel against vertical surface and measure horizontally from wall/door to centre of BB and to nose of saddle
from nose of saddle to centre of bars at clamp point
from nose of saddle to main hand position
from ground to top of saddle and from ground to bars

If you want a slightly different form of riding it's possible to rotate your position around the BB, think of BB, saddle and bars as a triangle with the BB as the pivot point. If you go with a MTB then you could have two height markers on seatpost, one for roadish riding and one, with a lower position, for offroading.

 

[fossyant]

You set the bikes up as similar as possible, allowing for stem length etc.

 

[Monsieur Remings]

OKay, MacB, that's a very helpful set of measurements which I will try. I presume with the second:

stand bike with back wheel against vertical surface and measure horizontally from wall/door to centre of BB and to nose of saddle

...you are trying to find the differential between BB and nose of saddle? I might just be reading this bit wrong as there is obviously no way to adjust on winter bike the length of back wheel to BB if it is different to the preferred geometry on the other?

I agree that a winter rig is the way forward so I best customise my old Defy to fit the way I now ride the carbon, if that makes sense. Thanks.

Thanks to fossyant too, not the first time you've replied fella, thanks. And Blacksheep, that gives the mtb side of things a bit of scope but I reckon my mind may finally be made up.

Any other chatters anything to add?

 

[MacB]

Yep it's just an easy way to measure your saddle setback from the BB, so wall to BB minus wall to saddle nose gives saddle setback. Obviously easier to replicate if you use the same saddles on the bikes

But if you have a comfy setup already then that triangular relationship is a good starting point for another bike. You can still alter and tweak but I find understanding the triangle helps me to understand the knock on effect of each change. By the way for measuring saddle to hand positions I also take a note of this from the centre of the main seatbone position on the saddle, allows for variance of saddle shapes and lengths.

Oh and measuring to main hand position should account for wider MTB bars etc.

 

[Monsieur Remings]

Many thanks mate, very helpful and gives me something to work around, much appreciated.

 

[Bicycle]

My 'street-bruiser urban commuter' is a bastardised HT MTB that might come close to your desired spec. It is fun to ride, but reasonably weatherproof and not worth money if it goes skating on its side.

Yes, the relationship between crank, bars and saddle is something to think about, but if you're going to be doing miles on this winter tool you'll soon absorb any differences in geometry. Give geometry some thought, but it's not the killer element.

One thing I had to do was fit an identical saddle to the MTB. That was the biggest single thing that made it feel more like the road bike (my fun machine and rural commuter). I have no idea why, but it made all the difference.

I cut down the wide MTB bars. It's no longer usable off-road, but it much more fun on-road. And closer to the feel of a road bike - particularly with bar ends mounted almost horizontal.

The bars are as low as they can be and the saddle is high. Very un-MTB and much more roadbike.

Be aware of crank length. Many MTBs (even quite small ones) have 175mm cranks where the equivalent road bike might have 170mm. Those 5 mm might make a big difference in feel.

Although most people disagree with me, I don't bother with mudguards on a road bike or MTB. I wear eye protection and splosh soapy water around after a shitty ride.

Be aware that if you do end up buying an old nail for winter training, it will simply not be as much fun or as responsive as your Carbon Lovely. This will make you less inclined to use it regularly. This may defeat the object of buying it...

Forks ought to have lock-out for road use. Otherwise it will feel VERY schpurgley at the front end. If you question my use of that word, get off a tight carbon road bike and onto something with front shocks. Schpurgley.

Get road tyres. Riding on the road with knobblies is just like having custard that's all skin and no custard. It is unrewarding, unresponsive, un-everything. Like driving a Land-Rover with knobblies on tarmac. You even get the silly noise too.

So... I'd be inclined to say:

"Get a used (cheapish) HT MTB, minimally roadify it and make sure that all the components are kept in top-notch condition so that you enjoy riding it.

I am probably completely wrong, but that's my advice.

 

[Monsieur Remings]

No, there's no wrong in any of this Bicycle, just opinion mate, and some valid contributions you've made, thanks.

I actually want the MTB for off-roading but I'm limited mostly by time and fear that despite the fact I would undoubtedly love riding trails (loads round here to choose from too) I may not leave enough time for the road. I want to give myself the best chance of completing the Etape next year and that means a lot of work on the road.

It's all the niggly bits that MacB has mostly put right, and I think that could be the deciding factor until I know different - getting as close to the carbon ride, geometrically as I can. I know, as you say, it won't be as much fun but it's the bike I used for two whole seasons before I bought my carbon and in the kind of adverse conditions I'll need to put it through to get the proper hours in, it won't be as much fun as summer days on the carbon anyway. But training is training if that makes sense.

Thanks again for the post.

 

[jdtate101]

When your kids are a little older you can do what I did...buy a MTB and a trailer and use the kids for resistance training. Pulling that extra weight around does wonders.....plus other road users give you a wide berth.

 

[Monsieur Remings]

When your kids are a little older you can do what I did...buy a MTB and a trailer and use the kids for resistance training. Pulling that extra weight around does wonders.....plus other road users give you a wide berth.

Funny you mention that mate, I always said to myself that when the bairns grow up I'd rather them see me, and thence get all excited and follow in daddy's footsteps....gulp....off-road.

 

[HLaB]

I dare say the geometries on all my bikes are different (the bianchi is supposed to be more sportif like and is a 55cm with 42cm bars, whereas the 54cm kinesis with 40cm bars is supposed to be more aggressive) but for me ensuring that the saddle height and setback is the main thing but they are also set up to have the same reach. My body doesn't have much problem adjusting between these set ups or my flat barred town bike.

 

[MacB]

You could always go for a hard tail, or fully rigid, 29er, not cheap if you want proper offroad capability but things like the Spesh Crosstrail would give a sort of road and XC mix on the cheap, just nothing too rough, limited clearances as well. With a fully rigid you can have your knobblies on for MTBing and stick some 40-50mm slicks on for road use, it's what I've done It depends exactly what you want to do with it, serious MTBing then you probably need at least front suspension and more than likely something that wouldn't be great for road use. It would even be feasible to have two sets of forks for the same 29er, rigid and suspension. As long as your controls come on and off easily then it's just a case of swapping over the brake caliper. Personally I think that's too much effort and would rather go N+1 but it's doable.

I chose my 29er setup with versatility in mind, so it's got a hub gear, it's fully rigid, it can take a rack and mudguards, etc. So it's meets my criteria of being ok for XC, singletrack, trails, mixed surface, adventure touring and road use. I can't see me going for tough offroading, downhilling, technical stuff, at present I'm just enjoying bimbling offroad or with my sons. I also enjoy going for a ride where I just take roads and trails as I fancy and this bike lets me do this comfortably.

You're really faced with the endless N+1 debate but you have two requirements, do you compromise and get N+1 or do you say sod it and get N+2 Do up the old bike for Winter road use and get yourself a snazzy MTB as well. That way you've got a hackbike for general duties and two smart bikes one for road and one for offroad.

 

[snailracer]

You are training for what, exactly? If it's just to stay fit, then how "speedy" a bike is, is less important than how comfortable or practical it is. You can get just as good a workout on a heavy old MTB as on a road bike, probably better because you don't have to ease off as much on the slippery bits.

 

[Monsieur Remings]

Cheers MacB. More food for thought.

Well, think I'll rig up the old Giant Defy with mudguards and use her over the shoot weather, that's for definite. So is giving up the gym - too expensive and I'm now bored with the bike there which has very little relation to a real road bike. Insofar as the mtb is concerned, well, it'll be an extravagance but the new Cube 2012 Ltd Pro, here might fit the bill...

http://www.allterraincycles.co.uk/product/125879.html

But I might wait and see, however much I'd like some new kicks, it's quite a commitment.

Snailracer, should be sticking to the road really, doing the Etape next year...