Green Electricity...erm....

[hubgearfreak]

sorry, i was typing my response to you're response to User482, and another's appeared

 

[hubgearfreak]

There are also useful demand-side storage systems that could be used to help match demand to supply. But that is an awful lot of new technologies that need to be developed and commercialised, not to mention the significant changes that will be needed to the grid to cater for more distributed generation. And we still have to develop the technologies needed to generate the power from waves, tidal currents etc, all of which are promising but still as yet not ready for commercial use.

this is where money should be invested.it would be good business to export these new technologies if we created/ perfected them. new nuclear takes too much investment - and will cause too much resentment when the decisions are made on their siting. whereas new coal would be much cheaper in the meantime, leaving time and money to develop new technologies.

First- how sure can you be that such a huge saving can be made so quickly, given that most people live in relatively poorly insulated houses that can only be improved so far, and much of that improvement is going to be taken as increased comfort rather than actual energy saved? Last year I visited a demo house at the Building Research Establishment. They claimed it needed no additional heating to keep it comfortable. That shows what is possible, but that requires completely new build.

we'll see if there are any answers coming in to the list above. we know that people are living in old housing, but we also know they have 100w lightbulbs, little/no loft insulation, boil 3 pints of water for 1/2 cup of tea & all the other things on the list above. yes some of the improvement will be taken as increased comfort, but not all..and it's no bad thing that people will be better off because of small, inexpensive improvements to their homes.

as for the new build thing, you're dead right..the houses being built now just aren't upto scratch in terms of efficiency.

what we need is help for those in old houses and low incomes to improve their homes
education about wasteful behaviour, and taxes on inefficient appliances
tax free insulation, CFLs and other positive things
much stricter building standards

Second- even if these savings were made, why does it follow we don't need nuclear? One could equally argue that it would negate the need for fossil fuel generation, with nuclear providing the remainder without carbon emissions.
And again, coupled with nuclear as well, even more CO2 could be saved. (Not forgetting that CO2 isn't the only issue here.)

i get that point, but i think that the financial cost is too high, they divert funding from more permanent & cleaner solutions. the risk of attack is too high, the longterm nature of the waste too nasty for following generations, and i ceratinly wouldn't want them sited anywhere near me - i guess that goes for most of us? not forgetting of course that processing uranium ore takes huge amounts of energy input, i recall a figure of 30% perKWH of CO2 for uranium compared to coal. uranium, like gas won't last for ever, either, so the sooner we get inventing permanent solutions, the better.

 

[Danny]

@ mjones

for those of you concerned about these things, there are better things you can do than switch supplier.

switching supplier is just greenwash (like whitewash, but concerned with environmental issues) if you think it makes you green, you're wrong. it's nice if the grid has renewables, because it would be a shame to not harvest them, but it also needs solid, reliable fossil fuel or nuclear power to ensure security of supply.

Don't agree. Britain produces a pathetically small amount of electricity from renewables - about 4% compared to 20% in Germany. This is largely down to the lack of government incentives for renewables (e.g. no feed-in tariff as in Germany) - but consumers can make a bit of a difference by using their buying power to stimulate demand for renewable energy. I know this won't happen overnight, but look at how consumer demand has made the big supermarkets stock more fair trade and organic produce.

While I accept there will always be a need for a baseline energy supply, we do need to see an urgent reduction in the use of fossil fuels for electricity production. Even if you support nuclear (and I remain highly sceptical), no new nuclear plants are going to start operating until at least 2020, whereas more renewables could easily come on stream before then.

Also a lot more could be done to minimise the need for baseline electricity by moving to a much more decentralised form of electricity production, which some of the green suppliers encourage. Something like 60% of all electricity is lost because it is so inefficient to transport for long distances over the grid. This is admittedly a problem that is going to affect large off-shore wind farms, as much as remote nuclear power stations, but as I say, the solution is to start investing serious money in more decentralised forms of production - which could include combined heat and power systems, small local wind farms, and solar.

Totally agree that people should do everything on your household checklist - but that doesn't mean you shouldn't encourage renewables as well.

 

[hubgearfreak]

Don't agree. Britain produces a pathetically small amount of electricity from renewables - about 4%

exactly.
4%

efficency could reduce CO2 by 20%, 40%, and without pissing people off who like unmolested moorland.

i'm all for renewables and even wind turbines, and dead against nuclear.

but you can imagine people off to new york for a weekends shopping, planting an apple tree, buying a lexus 4x4 hybrid and switching suppliers thinking that they're greener than green. it's bollocks.

whilst i do agree with the point about creating a market for renewable electricity, many do it and it alone and think they've done all they need to do,
whilst ignoring the far more productive things that they could do, but loft insulation and 1/6th full kettles sadly aren't very stimulating are they?

 

[Danny]

I think we are actually broadly agreeing with each other here, Hubgearfreak.

 

[jonesy]

... Something like 60% of all electricity is lost because it is so inefficient to transport for long distances over the grid. ....

I pretty sure this isn't true- there certainly are losses, especially over long distances (which is why DC is being considered for very long distance cables) but I've never seen a figure as high as this quoted. Where did you see it?

 

[Jaded]

now for the things you can do to make a difference

have you got 8-10 inches of loft insulation?

do you have cavity walls - are they insulated?

if you don't, do you have 10mm foam wallpaper?

do you have CFLs throughout?

do you switch the Tv & etc. off at the wall socket every night?

do you have double glazing, or draught excluders, or neither?

do you boil only the water you need for the cup(s) of tea you're making?

is the heating such that you're in a t-shirt or have you got a jumper on now?

is your boiler new/newish, did you ask about its efficiency.?
if it's old, like 20years or so, a new one could pay back for itself in a few years.

if you have a hotwater tank, is it well insulated?

did you make certain that your fridge and washing machine are 'a' rated?
would the rating be important when you buy a new one?

if you're answering no to any of these, you could help.
if you're answering no to many of these, you could half your bills and CO2

Oh go on!

It is far easier to sit in the South and call people nimbies!

 

[jonesy]

@ mjones


whether we need nuclear in this mix is obviously a contentious issue..i certainly don't think that they're needed, but i'm clearly not going to persuade anyone who thinks they are otherwise, or vice-versa. whether those that think they are needed would be happy to have them in their locality i doubt.

Well I'm only a couple of miles from a very large coal fired station. Given the choice I'd prefer nuclear, not least because a nuclear station wouldn't be destroying much loved local habitats with ash dumping.

now for the things you can do to make a difference

have you got 8-10 inches of loft insulation?

Sadly I don't have 8 inches but it is insulated, except for some troublesome sloping sections near the eves where the roof and ceiling are very close and a different approach will be needed, probably involving quite major work on roof, or ceiling, or both. Any suggestions?

do you have cavity walls - are they insulated?

Yes

if you don't, do you have 10mm foam wallpaper?

No. How effective is it? What are the implications for fires etc?

do you have CFLs throughout?

Yes

do you switch the Tv & etc. off at the wall socket every night?

Yes

do you have double glazing, or draught excluders, or neither?

double glazed throughout

do you boil only the water you need for the cup(s) of tea you're making?

Yes, but I drink a lot of tea!

is the heating such that you're in a t-shirt or have you got a jumper on now?

I wear warm clothes indoors- actually, even when the heating is on, it struggles to make the house that warm in very cold weather.

is your boiler new/newish, did you ask about its efficiency.?

if it's old, like 20years or so, a new one could pay back for itself in a few years.

8 years old now. Did check efficiency when buying it.

if you have a hotwater tank, is it well insulated?

Yes

did you make certain that your fridge and washing machine are 'a' rated?
would the rating be important when you buy a new one?

yes
if you're answering no to any of these, you could help.
if you're answering no to many of these, you could half your bills and CO2

Half? I'm sure lots of households could do that without significant reduction in comfort, nonetheless older homes inevitably require a lot more energy to keep warm, so even halving still leaves a lot of energy needed. I would be genuinely interested to see some robust figures for what can be realistically achieved with Britain's older housing stock.

.

 

[hubgearfreak]

I pretty sure this isn't true- there certainly are losses, especially over long distances (which is why DC is being considered for very long distance cables) but I've never seen a figure as high as this quoted. Where did you see it?

it's to do with the inefficiency of the power station.

for 1 joule of gas in, most goes up as steam through the cooling tower.

so only 0.4 joules of electricity arrives at the house


gas piped directly to the house and burnt in a modern boiler will give 90-95 % efficiency, so for 1 joule of gas in, 0.9 joules of heat is given.

the reason we have AC is that it can easily go through transformer and go the distance at 1000's of volts.
given that power = volts x amps, the higher the volts for a given power requirement, the smaller the ampage rating of the cable required.

i don't know the facts, but far a small cities consumption to be delivered DC 240v, the cable may need to be several feet in diametre

Sadly I don't have 8 inches but it is insulated, except for some troublesome sloping sections near the eves where the roof and ceiling are very close and a different approach will be needed, probably involving quite major work on roof, or ceiling, or both. Any suggestions?

OK, you did well on the test
have you got any photos of the troublesome spot?

i urge you to get it up to 8 or 10 inches, your house will be comfier and the investment will repay itself in just 2 or 3 years.

 

[radger]

I pretty sure this isn't true- there certainly are losses, especially over long distances (which is why DC is being considered for very long distance cables) but I've never seen a figure as high as this quoted. Where did you see it?

I think it's about 60% loss through heat, plus about 4% loss in distribution, according to greenpeace anyway.

 

[User482]

@ mjones

for those of you concerned about these things, there are better things you can do than switch supplier.

Agree

switching supplier is just greenwash (like whitewash, but concerned with environmental issues) if you think it makes you green, you're wrong. it's nice if the grid has renewables, because it would be a shame to not harvest them, but it also needs solid, reliable fossil fuel or nuclear power to ensure security of supply.

Switching supplier is not greenwash, as certain suppliers do make a worthwhile difference. We need to significantly increase renewbles capacity if we are to make serious cuts is CO2



whether we need nuclear in this mix is obviously a contentious issue..i certainly don't think that they're needed, but i'm clearly not going to persuade anyone who thinks they are otherwise, or vice-versa. whether those that think they are needed would be happy to have them in their locality i doubt.

Which is another argument for increased renewables

now for the things you can do to make a difference

have you got 8-10 inches of loft insulation?
300mm

do you have cavity walls - are they insulated?
Solid walls

if you don't, do you have 10mm foam wallpaper?
The foam paper is ineffective. Internal or external insulation would cost several thousand poinds - money I don't have

do you have CFLs throughout?
yes

do you switch the Tv & etc. off at the wall socket every night?
yes
do you have double glazing, or draught excluders, or neither?
yes - DG throughout, using argon filled low emissivity glass
do you boil only the water you need for the cup(s) of tea you're making?
yes
is the heating such that you're in a t-shirt or have you got a jumper on now?
I only turn the heating up if I'm still cold when wearing a jumper
is your boiler new/newish, did you ask about its efficiency.?
Installed before I moved in
if it's old, like 20years or so, a new one could pay back for itself in a few years.
5 years old so not worth replacing
if you have a hotwater tank, is it well insulated?
n/a

did you make certain that your fridge and washing machine are 'a' rated?
would the rating be important when you buy a new one?
all white goods I have ever bought have been A-rated

if you're answering no to any of these, you could help.
if you're answering no to many of these, you could half your bills and CO2

You have missed the biggest difference you can make in reducing CO2 though - reduce or give up flying. I limit myself to a maximum of one short-haul return flight per year. This year I will only take one single short-haul flight.

 

[jonesy]

it's to do with the inefficiency of the power station.

for 1 joule of gas in, most goes up as steam through the cooling tower.

so only 0.4 joules of electricity arrives at the house

I know about losses in generation, but the post I was referring to was talking about losses in distribution, which is a very different thing, and certainly not 60%.

gas piped directly to the house and burnt in a modern boiler will give 90-95 % efficiency, so for 1 joule of gas in, 0.9 joules of heat is given.

the reason we have AC is that it can easily go through transformer and go the distance at 1000's of volts.
given that power = volts x amps, the higher the volts for a given power requirement, the smaller the ampage rating of the cable required.

i don't know the facts, but far a small cities consumption to be delivered DC 240v, the cable may need to be several feet in diametre

To clarify- DC is being proposed for long distance high voltage distribution, because losses from AC start to become significant presumably because of induction; but also because when the size of the distribution network becomes comparable with the wavelength of the alternating current then you have to start taking account of things like reflection, standing waves etc just as you do in high frequency cables of much shorter length.

 

[jonesy]

You have missed the biggest difference you can make in reducing CO2 though - reduce or give up flying. I limit myself to a maximum of one short-haul return flight per year. This year I will only take one single short-haul flight.

This year, like last year, and the one before, I will most likely take no flights at all.

Edit-sorry, just spotted you were responding to hgf not me.

Actually, I think it is quite reasonable to keep this discussion focused on domestic energy use; flying or not doesn't affect it.

 

[hubgearfreak]

thermal wall paper is approved by the energy savings trust, would they put their name to something ineffective?

anyway, the figures are here, if you'd like to see them. seems cheap and easy to me

http://www.mgcltd.co.uk/Products/Thermal_and_Acoustic_Insulation/SEMPATAP_THERMAL/

 

[Arch]

now for the things you can do to make a difference

have you got 8-10 inches of loft insulation?

do you have cavity walls - are they insulated?

if you don't, do you have 10mm foam wallpaper?

do you have CFLs throughout?

do you switch the Tv & etc. off at the wall socket every night?

do you have double glazing, or draught excluders, or neither?

do you boil only the water you need for the cup(s) of tea you're making?

is the heating such that you're in a t-shirt or have you got a jumper on now?

is your boiler new/newish, did you ask about its efficiency.?
if it's old, like 20years or so, a new one could pay back for itself in a few years.

if you have a hotwater tank, is it well insulated?

did you make certain that your fridge and washing machine are 'a' rated?
would the rating be important when you buy a new one?

if you're answering no to any of these, you could help.
if you're answering no to many of these, you could half your bills and CO2

Living in a rented one-room-and-a-bathroom flat, I don't get much choice about anything to do with insulation/double glazing etc. Or my choice of fridge. I don't have a washing machine. I wear jumpers and only turn on the fan heater when I need to defrost my toes, or for a half hour in the morning when I get up. I've taken to getting into bed to keep warm this winter. I have low energy lightbulbs throughout, and never leave anything on standby - well, my TV doesn't have a standby! I had a switch wired into my CD/digital radio so that I could switch it off without grovelling on the floor under the table for the plug, because it didn't have the option of switching off completely.

I'm probably not as careful about boiling the one cup of water as I could, I admit. I do heat washing up water in a pan on the residual heat in my cooker rings while I eat my dinner though... Saves on having the imersion heater on.

Of course, half of it for me is budget, as much as 'green-ness'. Why would some people bother, they have money enough and plenty to spare for bills and luxuries.