Groupsets

[sayek1]

I am looking at making my own commuter bike up and am currently looking to source & price the parts.

Looking at groupsets I am keen to stick with SRAM and am looking at the new Apex vs the Rival - the Apex is more expensive I believe, probably due to the "newness" of the idea of having a triple but by using only a compact. This appeals to me and for the sake of £50 I am tempted.

However, when looking at the pricing it appears I could buy all of the components individually from ebay cheaper than the whole set through the cheapest I have seen to date (Chainreation - £499 vs about £400 for bit by bit on ebay). I do not need the brakes as I am going for discs - the brakes only amount to about £40.

Does anyone have any other options/views.

Also, if I buy the groupset, do I need a BB, or is this included with the crankset (both for the whole package and also the individual items?).

Thanks for any advice.

K

 

[sayek1]

Hoping I might get some thoughts back from all of the many bike-builders I know inhabit this forum.

 

[RedBike]

Will this be a flat or drop barred bike?

I'm not sure Sram have a flat bar road shifter for their Apex / Rival groupset and there's bound to be compatability issues with using their MTB ones.

If its a drop bar bike then you will need 'road disc brakes'. There's not that many choices here. The most common are Avids BB7's. They're normally about £70 for each caliper.

 

[accountantpete]

The cranks should come with the BB shells - ie they are complete and ready to fit.

Have you seen this offer?

 

[sayek1]

The cranks should come with the BB shells - ie they are complete and ready to fit.

Have you seen this offer?

That looks like a good deal.

I'm now going to ask a stupid question - what difference does the size of cage make - small or large? Also what's braze on vs the other options? I am going to be looking at a kinesis frame, so I am assuming its the size of the seat tube that the derrailleur fixes to - not sure which I'll need but I'll email Kinesis unless anyone has a better answer.

Thanks for the response

 

[accountantpete]

The rear mech cage differs to allow bigger sprockets on the back hub - I'm not sure with SRAM but generally if your rear cassette is up to 28t on the largest sprocket then you can get away with a short cage rear mech. Any bigger and you will need a medium or long cage - ask the shop if you are in doubt.

The braze on front mech is for bikes with a brazed on attachment that the mech screws on to. Not all frames have this and need a banded front mech attachment- I'd ask Kinesis as you say.

 

[sayek1]

The rear mech cage differs to allow bigger sprockets on the back hub - I'm not sure with SRAM but generally if your rear cassette is up to 28t on the largest sprocket then you can get away with a short cage rear mech. Any bigger and you will need a medium or long cage - ask the shop if you are in doubt.

The braze on front mech is for bikes with a brazed on attachment that the mech screws on to. Not all frames have this and need a banded front mech attachment- I'd ask Kinesis as you say.

Thanks Pete for your advice. The bikes going to be drop bar - I want something that I can ride through the winter on with bit more stopping power(hence the discs) and I can fit mudguards to. I really like the SRAM groupset on my carbon road-bike (summer use) so wanted to stick with this. Having looked around everywhere there was nothing available matching exactly what I wanted so self build looked like the only option. Having now done the research I reckon I should be able to achieve this for not much more than something like a Genesis CDF, but have a far better set of components for similar money.

All I need to do now is find some suitable wheels - tryng to find 700c disc-brake suitable wheels doesn't seem to be easy. I eas looking for something like the Ritchey wheels of a Bordman Hybrid but I can't find these anywhere.

Plus.... of course then work out how to build it - reckon I'll be back on this site for lots of advice here.

Thanks for all the advice.

 

[RedBike]

Both the short cage and the long cage road rear mech will only handle up to about 28t. The difference is the total capacity they will take.

A short cage can only be used with a standard double chainset and a close ratio cassette.
If you want to use a triple chainset or a compact chainset with a wide ratio cassettte then you'll need the long cage rear mech.

Most front cage mechs will come with a set of shims to fit a range of seat tube sizes.



Before you get too carried away I would double check your sums.

You can only use road disc brakes with road sti levers. These calipers will set you back closer to £140 than £40.
Unless you want spongy feeling brakes you will also need the correct brake cable outer. It's as rare as hens teeth and costs closer to £25 a length instead of £2.50 budget stuff.

Light-weight road specific disc brake wheels are also very rare. There are plenty of 29er mtb or 'hybrid' wheelsets on the market but these are generally designed for larger width tyres and the lower end sets are normally a bit on the heavy side.

If you want a light-weight road specific set then you'll probably need to get them hand-built. Obviously the cost will depend upon what parts you select but you'll probably be looking at the best part of £200.


By the time you've added the finishing kit, seatpost, bars, stem, tyres, tubes, bar tape, seat post clamp, cables, saddle the cost will soon add up!

 

[MacB]

No reason not to do this as long as you're ok with the spend, as Redbike says, it soon builds up. I reckon my builds have cost about 30% more than a complete bike of similar spec. The point to note is I say 'similar' spec, none of the complete builds gave exactly what I wanted and I was prepared to take the financial hit.

I'd go with a handbuilt wheelset, most of the wheelbuilders seem happy to source parts, other than offered on their websites, to do any sort of build, or you can buy hubs/rims and they'll build them up for you. For this sort of bike something based around a 622x17 rim would be good, that gives scope for tyres from 25-37mm. Spa Cycles do builds with the EXAL LX17, or Rigida Snyper, rims which have brake tracks. There's also the Mavic A317 disc only rim with the same sort of ERTO. I've seen 700c disc wheel builds using the Mavic Open Sport and Open Pro rims as well, this puts the upper tyre limit at about 32mm, but lets you go down to 23mm. SJSC do wheelbuilds but they do seem to work out pretty high pricewise. Harry Rowland has a great reputation and will build whatever you want, not cheap again but he seems to stand by his work.

I can't help much re the groupsets as a workhorse bike I'd only be looking at a hub gear. I reserve derailler stuff for best so I'd be lusting after the SRAM Red.

 

[sayek1]

No reason not to do this as long as you're ok with the spend, as Redbike says, it soon builds up. I reckon my builds have cost about 30% more than a complete bike of similar spec. The point to note is I say 'similar' spec, none of the complete builds gave exactly what I wanted and I was prepared to take the financial hit.

I'd go with a handbuilt wheelset, most of the wheelbuilders seem happy to source parts, other than offered on their websites, to do any sort of build, or you can buy hubs/rims and they'll build them up for you. For this sort of bike something based around a 622x17 rim would be good, that gives scope for tyres from 25-37mm. Spa Cycles do builds with the EXAL LX17, or Rigida Snyper, rims which have brake tracks. There's also the Mavic A317 disc only rim with the same sort of ERTO. I've seen 700c disc wheel builds using the Mavic Open Sport and Open Pro rims as well, this puts the upper tyre limit at about 32mm, but lets you go down to 23mm. SJSC do wheelbuilds but they do seem to work out pretty high pricewise. Harry Rowland has a great reputation and will build whatever you want, not cheap again but he seems to stand by his work.

I can't help much re the groupsets as a workhorse bike I'd only be looking at a hub gear. I reserve derailler stuff for best so I'd be lusting after the SRAM Red.

Hi MacB & Redbike,

Thanks for your comments - I now understand the long/short cage options. Looking at the new SRAM Apex groupset I am very interested in the new 11-32 cassette - I fancy a bit of an easier ride up the hills, but don't want to go for a triple. Therefore I'll need the long cage.

Regards the wheels, I agree these look hard to find - I haven't had a lot of luck - I had another thread running on this and its been fairly sparse on ideas on 700c whels - a few 29er options. I tried to find some of the wheels used on the Boardman Hybrids - Ritchey Pro rims, but I can't find a full wheel. I'll look into hand-build locally and see what I can find - £200 will be fine. I'd set a budget of £300 here as I want something that runs pretty quickly. Regards the brakes I have been told that the Avid BB7 will work with the Apex levers - hope this is the case, but I will try and mail SRAM to confirm.

I've stuck to a full blown derreilleur as I don't know anything about hubs - what's important to me is the full range of gears Id get on a normal dereilleur bike. I'm worried that the hub would add weight & cost whilst leaving me stranded at both or one end of the spectrum.

I recognise that the costs look like they re going up, but for £200 extra I am fine if I get my full spec - a good frame, a good set of brakes and my wheels and groupset of choice.

Thanks for your advice to date - anything else you could ad would be appreciated.

Regards
K

 

[eldudino]

Worth speaking to:

http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/contact.htm

I've also heard very good things about:

http://www.wheelcraft.net/

Both are local, Wheelcraft a bit closer to you.

 

[RedBike]

Avid make two different versions of the bb7, the road and the MTB. Only the road version will work with road levers. £200 was a concervative estimate for the wheels. If you want a light-weight set that runs quickly you'll be looking at a LOT more.

 

[sayek1]

Well - decision made. The Kinesis Decade Tripster frame on ebay went for quite a bit of money and more than I was willing to pay so determined that I would stick with a Genisis CDF and make do for the next few months rather than spending £1300 on a self build. Have found one for £375 today, but when woprking through all of the costs it was coming to quite a sum.

Had a CDF lined up for a test ride tonight and was very impressed so bought it!!!!! Ouch. Good news was it was discounted as it was the end of year stock.

Looks like my bike building days will have to be put on hold for a couple of years. Might think about upgrading the CDF to SRAM at a later date (next years sometime).......... Sorry I can't join you self-builders, but I couldn't justify £1300-1400 vs £900.

Having spent that much I now need to find my motivation to get up out of bed and start commuting again on these cold, dark wet Scottish mornings (and evenings).

Cheers for all your advice and tips.

 

[GrahamG]

Seeing as you're going to be running it through winter, I'd seriously advise taking the bike apart to grease up all the threads with a copper slick style assembly compound and then re-assembling it. New bikes come bone dry - if you don't get around to upgrading or servicing within 12 months or so you might end up with stuck bottom bracket, knackered hub cones/bearings (unless cartridge bearings) and knackered headset if unlucky. Maybe just one or two of these if you're lucky....

Well - decision made. The Kinesis Decade Tripster frame on ebay went for quite a bit of money and more than I was willing to pay so determined that I would stick with a Genisis CDF and make do for the next few months rather than spending £1300 on a self build. Have found one for £375 today, but when woprking through all of the costs it was coming to quite a sum.

Had a CDF lined up for a test ride tonight and was very impressed so bought it!!!!! Ouch. Good news was it was discounted as it was the end of year stock.

Looks like my bike building days will have to be put on hold for a couple of years. Might think about upgrading the CDF to SRAM at a later date (next years sometime).......... Sorry I can't join you self-builders, but I couldn't justify £1300-1400 vs £900.

Having spent that much I now need to find my motivation to get up out of bed and start commuting again on these cold, dark wet Scottish mornings (and evenings).

Cheers for all your advice and tips.

 

[MacB]

Seeing as you're going to be running it through winter, I'd seriously advise taking the bike apart to grease up all the threads with a copper slick style assembly compound and then re-assembling it. New bikes come bone dry - if you don't get around to upgrading or servicing within 12 months or so you might end up with stuck bottom bracket, knackered hub cones/bearings (unless cartridge bearings) and knackered headset if unlucky. Maybe just one or two of these if you're lucky....

If you lack the know how for this then it could be a great opportunity, find an LBS or mechanic prepared to do this, at a reasonable price, and talk you through it as they work. I reckon £40 should cover it, they'll find any potential issues and you'll get some fantastic hands on instruction. You can even find mobile mechanics that would come to you in the evening.