Gumtree - stolen goods or what?

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Alembicbassman

Confused.com
General rule is:-

if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.

Legally; if you buy a bike you know to be substantially under what it is worth, which turns out to be stolen, you can be convicted of handling stolen goods. You will also lose the bike.
 
General rule is:-

if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.

Legally; if you buy a bike you know to be substantially under what it is worth, which turns out to be stolen, you can be convicted of handling stolen goods. You will also lose the bike.



That sounds totally ridiculous to me. How an earth would the police go about proving it anyway and what law are you referring to? Complete waste of police time and tax payers money imo.

And I agree, it looks stolen. Gumtree really need to sort themselves out. They should put some sort of verification system in place to weed out these people and make it easier for the police to track them down.
 

Alembicbassman

Confused.com
s.22 Theft Act 1968

A person handles stolen goods if (otherwise than in the course of stealing), knowing or believing them to be stolen goods he dishonestly receives the goods, or dishonestly undertakes or assists in their retention, removal, disposal or realisation by or for the benefit of another person, or if he arranges to do so.

The accused's knowledge or belief as to the nature of the goods is crucial, but has been a constant source of interpretive problems. Either may be based on what the thief says or some other positive information, but belief is less than knowledge and more than mere suspicion. In R v Hall ([1985] 81 Cr App R 260), it was held that, per Boreham, J.,

Belief.. is something short of knowledge. It may be said to be the state of mind of a person who says to himself: "I cannot say I know for certain that these goods are stolen, but there can be no other reasonable conclusion in the light of all the circumstances, in the light of all that I have heard and seen".​
He went on to distinguish the case where a defendant has said

"I suspect that these goods may be stolen, but it may be on the other hand that they are not"

The situation is further complicated by the concept of recklessness or wilful blindness to the circumstances; either will be treated as a belief that the goods are stolen. Thus, suspicion will be converted into belief when the facts are so obvious that belief may safely be imputed. So if the defendant bought goods in a pub or a dark alley for a fraction of their true value and it is clear that identification marks or serial numbers have been erased, any denial of belief by the defendant would not be credible.

If you are wilfully blind as to the circumstances and you know the bike is worth more, then you can be committing the offence.
 
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APK

New Member
If you are wilfully blind as to the circumstances and you know the bike is worth more, then you can be committing the offence.


I suspect that would be very difficult to proove, after all, we all like a bargain, and like to think we paid less than the true value with every thing we buy.

Apart from being comfortable with the situation, meeting the seller at their home etc, is there any way of checking if a bike is stolen?

P.S. the ad has now gone.
 
That sounds totally ridiculous to me. How an earth would the police go about proving it anyway and what law are you referring to? Complete waste of police time and tax payers money imo.

And I agree, it looks stolen. Gumtree really need to sort themselves out. They should put some sort of verification system in place to weed out these people and make it easier for the police to track them down.

If the bike is registered stolen and has ID marks on it etc. And then you cannot prove where you purchased it from.



It *can* be taken off you, and stolen goods often are... this goes on with stuff like cars and caravans often enough...
 

Globalti

Legendary Member
When I take scrap metal to the scrappie I am asked for my name. address and car reg to make sure I'm not flogging stolen stuff. Can't something like this be applied to internet selling sites?
 

Cubist

Still wavin'
Location
Ovver 'thill
That sounds totally ridiculous to me. How an earth would the police go about proving it anyway and what law are you referring to? Complete waste of police time and tax payers money imo.

And I agree, it looks stolen. Gumtree really need to sort themselves out. They should put some sort of verification system in place to weed out these people and make it easier for the police to track them down.

Well, what if the loser of the bike has been scouring the ads and sees this advert. The police track the seller down and he tells them he hasn't got the bike anymore, he sold it to a nice Mr Riverman. The cops visit Mr Riverman who says, "Yes, we all like a bit of a bargain, and so I happily paid £60 for something I knew full well should be worth about 700 quid. "

As the post with the case example shows, it's all about whether a REASONABLE person would suspect or believe that the bike was stolen given the ridiculous asking price. In this instance, even with a decent brief to get you off the hook you'd lose the bike and your 60 quid, because the original owner never loses title of the goods in question.

Waste of time and money? Far from it. The people who would happily walk away with this sort of bargain are almost wholly responsible for the fact that some ****ing parasite has been mooching around your shed/garage looking to **** off with your pride and joy.

Sleep tight.
 

MacB

Lover of things that come in 3's
Well, what if the loser of the bike has been scouring the ads and sees this advert. The police track the seller down and he tells them he hasn't got the bike anymore, he sold it to a nice Mr Riverman. The cops visit Mr Riverman who says, "Yes, we all like a bit of a bargain, and so I happily paid £60 for something I knew full well should be worth about 700 quid. "

As the post with the case example shows, it's all about whether a REASONABLE person would suspect or believe that the bike was stolen given the ridiculous asking price. In this instance, even with a decent brief to get you off the hook you'd lose the bike and your 60 quid, because the original owner never loses title of the goods in question.

Waste of time and money? Far from it. The people who would happily walk away with this sort of bargain are almost wholly responsible for the fact that some ****ing parasite has been mooching around your shed/garage looking to **** off with your pride and joy.

Sleep tight.

that really hits the nail on the head, remove the market and remove the problem
 

davefb

Guru
When I take scrap metal to the scrappie I am asked for my name. address and car reg to make sure I'm not flogging stolen stuff. Can't something like this be applied to internet selling sites?

yeah, but they dont always check properly....

(googles story that was in paper about womans nicked car being crapped, even though it was obviously nicked , coppers did feck all, woman tracked it down)

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/8959929.Woman_finds_her_stolen_car_crushed/

oh and yeah,, sounds like same as with the old car radio issue , if people didnt buy them in pubs for a tenner, people wouldnt be nicking them
 

JonnyBlade

Live to Ride
I know how much my bike cost to make up but don't have a clue of the cost of an off road bike for instance. What about the average guy that buys a cheap bike for a son or daughter. You might just read £60 and great condition. In this current climate there must be oodles of perspective buyers.
My point is that not everyone is gonna know true values, just that they are looking at a bargain. Why close a market because of a minority of thieving ****ers. Surely it's a good place to spot them?
 
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APK

New Member
The problem is we all like a bargain, if we get a £1000 bike for £500 we shout about it and feel good, doesn't mean its stolen, maybe the seller just didn't know the true value, or was desperate to get hold of some cash, or even a shop selling last years models off to make space/cashflow for something more profitable.

As far as I can see, this is simply a case of buyer beware and take precautions, meet the seller at their house, see receipts if possible, ask them how bits work, to see if they have really owned/used it, and also get a receipt showing their name address etc, at least if it turns out stolen you should have enough evidence to show you did not knowingly buy stolen goods, and to help the police trace the seller/thief.
 

Cubist

Still wavin'
Location
Ovver 'thill
The problem is we all like a bargain, if we get a £1000 bike for £500 we shout about it and feel good, doesn't mean its stolen, maybe the seller just didn't know the true value, or was desperate to get hold of some cash, or even a shop selling last years models off to make space/cashflow for something more profitable.

As far as I can see, this is simply a case of buyer beware and take precautions, meet the seller at their house, see receipts if possible, ask them how bits work, to see if they have really owned/used it, and also get a receipt showing their name address etc, at least if it turns out stolen you should have enough evidence to show you did not knowingly buy stolen goods, and to help the police trace the seller/thief.

You're missing the whole point. A bargain is a bargain. A ridiculously low price for an expensive item is one indication that it might be stolen. We're not talking 25% off 'cos it's last year's model, or an ebayer not attracting enough bids, we're talking about (potentially) some clueless scrote nicking your carbon race bike and flogging it for the price of a couple of rocks and a bag of smack.

Your last bit about buyer beware is of course wise advice.
 
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