Hi-Viz jackets and cycling in France?
- Thread starter Chrisz
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andrew_s
Legendary Member
- Location
- Gloucester
andrew_s said:
The actual legislation (here, Article 20) reads
"At night, or during the day if the visibility is poor, all cyclists must wear a hi-viz jacket outside built-up areas "
Santini gilet (at €60).
EN471 is the standard that any hi-viz gilet/jacket must conform too. Simply google EN471 and you'll get loads of hits... this one for instance.
They are sold in France for as little as €2.50 for a basic, no-frills version but you can spend a great deal more... €150 for a waterproof jacket for instance
They are sold in France for as little as €2.50 for a basic, no-frills version but you can spend a great deal more... €150 for a waterproof jacket for instance
yello said:
Yello - sorry to be pedantic, but your post actually illustrates why it's not a hypothetical issue: the jacket you link to actually meets EN 1150 and not EN471 (download the fiche produit) . The article that Andrew links to (great detective work Andrew) does not include any reference to EN471 - and simply provides for the the minister to issue an arrêté. As the article stands, the jacket/gilet you link could well be legal even though it doesn't conform to EN471 .
With regard to cyclists being done for not wearing one, I have not heard/read of it happening. Doesn't mean it hasn't though! I reckon you're more likely to be 'on the spot' sold a gilet rather than fined.
You will see a lot of drivers with the gilet over the seat, much to the amusement of some newspaper columnists. There's even a piss-take name given to such drivers! It started when police were randomly stopping drivers to check they had the gilet, triangle, etc - people wanted to avoid being stopped I guess.
You will see a lot of drivers with the gilet over the seat, much to the amusement of some newspaper columnists. There's even a piss-take name given to such drivers! It started when police were randomly stopping drivers to check they had the gilet, triangle, etc - people wanted to avoid being stopped I guess.
andym said:
Now that's interesting. I took the link from an article on the regulations in the FFCTs monthly mag. It was that article that said EN471, I wouldn't know one EN number from another! (FFCT is France's CTC). If the FFCT are getting it wrong then there is confusion!
Edit: Just looked at the mag again. EN1150 is a different standard, the basic and legal €2.50 gilet conforms to EN471. What the difference between the 2 standards is, I don't know... but you've got me interested now and I'm going to find out!
yello said:
Well they are probably in a much better position than I am to say, and I don't know whether there's an arrété a or what it says. Certainly there would be a problem if a cyclist bough a gilet that complied with EN1150 and then found that it didn't meet the French law.
For the record, after a quick look at EN 1150 it seems to require 25 square centimetres of retroreflective material with a minimum width of 25mm (so that rules out reflective piping), while according to the document you linked to, EN 471 requires that a garment has to have 0.13 square metres of refective material. Now it's near my bedtime, but I think this equals 130 square centimetres.
http://www.safeways.nl/files/Word en tekst bestanden/DIN EN 1150_engl (2).pdf
Blimey, this is getting weirder! I'm not sure there is actually a legal standard encoded in French law! Only that the hi-viz must conform to a standard
Further, the 2 EN standards are quite different in purpose, though dealing with similar issues; that is, visibility . EN471 applies to professional usage hi-viz (road workers etc I guess) and EN1150 is non-professional use.
I have seen text stating (here for instance) stating that it's either/or situation... so long as your hi-viz conforms to one or the other standard then it's fine.
But I've also find reference to a requirement to adhere to a European directive 89 / 686 / EEC.... this is to do with personal safety equipment... but I'm getting tired and baffled! I shall continue my search tomorrow!!
In short, I reckon you'd be okay with either 471 or 1150.
Further, the 2 EN standards are quite different in purpose, though dealing with similar issues; that is, visibility . EN471 applies to professional usage hi-viz (road workers etc I guess) and EN1150 is non-professional use.
I have seen text stating (here for instance) stating that it's either/or situation... so long as your hi-viz conforms to one or the other standard then it's fine.
But I've also find reference to a requirement to adhere to a European directive 89 / 686 / EEC.... this is to do with personal safety equipment... but I'm getting tired and baffled! I shall continue my search tomorrow!!
In short, I reckon you'd be okay with either 471 or 1150.
OP
OP
Chrisz
Über Member
- Location
- Sittingbourne
Cheers guys but feck all that pallava!!
I have gone and got myself some self-adhesive reflective tape (love ebay sometimes) of roughly the correct width which I have studiously applied to my flo-yellow shower jacket in a vague gilet-style manner. It won't conform to any EU stndard number but I have figured that there will be some 300-odd of us on the road each day so les flics will hopefully leave us alone
I have gone and got myself some self-adhesive reflective tape (love ebay sometimes) of roughly the correct width which I have studiously applied to my flo-yellow shower jacket in a vague gilet-style manner. It won't conform to any EU stndard number but I have figured that there will be some 300-odd of us on the road each day so les flics will hopefully leave us alone
yello said:
I think you're probably right on the first point. Apart from anything else, if the French government did require that people had to wear gilets complying with EN 471 and not EN 1150 then manufacturers of cycling kit in other countries could complain that this was a barrier to trade and the European Commission/European Court could, potentially, rule it invalid as in breach of European treaties.
As to the directive on personal protective equipment. I think the short answer to this is that it's a red herring. This directive is the counterpart to another european directive on the use of persoanal protective equipment at work Basically this latter directive was intended to ensure that all workers in the European Union were subject to the minimum safety standards. If for example you require all building workers to wear hard hats then clearly you need to ensure that there is a common minimum standard for helmets. This is where the product safety directives come in, but IIRC they only apply to people at work. So for example there are different standards for cycle or riding helmets or high-viz clothing for runners and cyclists.
I couldn't see that the reference to the European directive was directly relevant either. But I'm coming to the conclusion that there is no directly applicable standard or regulation for a cyclist's hiz-viz anyway! So I reckon several where kind of rounded up and thrust forward as options. Then different authorities and advisory bodies have tried to be conclusive and it's kind of just confused the situation.
I do think though that in practice the situation is simply stated as either EN471 or EN1150.
And that'll be ok too I reckon!
They'll be concerned for your safety only. They'll not be bothered if your gilet doesn't quite conform, so long as it's visible.
French laws are often differently interpreted region-by-region anyway, very 'laissez faire' in practice. It sounds like a recipe for disaster, and it sometimes can be!, but if you just chill out and go with it then it all works out.
I do think though that in practice the situation is simply stated as either EN471 or EN1150.
Chrisz said:
And that'll be ok too I reckon!
It won't conform to any EU stndard number but I have figured that there will be some 300-odd of us on the road each day so les flics will hopefully leave us alone
They'll be concerned for your safety only. They'll not be bothered if your gilet doesn't quite conform, so long as it's visible.
French laws are often differently interpreted region-by-region anyway, very 'laissez faire' in practice. It sounds like a recipe for disaster, and it sometimes can be!, but if you just chill out and go with it then it all works out.
There are two European standards for professional use: EN 471 class 2 and the more demanding EN 471 class 3. The less demanding EN 1150 standard is for non professional use only, such as in sports. There are also closely corresponding American ANSI and Canadian standards, but they are quite irrelevant in the European market (though most professional products meet both EN 471 and Ansi, since they are so similar). I have no idea what the French law viz bicycling presupposes, but I would guess EN 1150. However, most professional gear meets at least EN 471 class 2, and ussually even class 3 (apart from many gilets and t shirts that are simply not large enough to meet class 3 requirements, but make do with class 2).
Instead of worrrying about what you can get away with, I think the smart thing to do is to get the best there is: EN 471 class 3. It does not cost any more, and it is designed for the most demanding situations for road side workers - that is precisely the gear a cyclist wants, I think.
The practical problem is that there really is hardly any cycling specific gear that meets these standards. There is clothing with a hi viz yellow colour, but nothing that also has reflective striping of the kind required by any of the standards. All you can hope for is a bit of piping and small reflective details.
The question is what to do, other than wear an EN 471 vest at all time. I have chosen to buy some hi viz yellow Brooks Nightlife running shirts, socks, and a jacket. As sports clothing I have been very happy with the stuff, and as long as you are riding in day time or at dusk, the dayglow colour is magnificently visible. The problem comes at night. Then the fluo colour no longer works, and you really need the reflective striping. Since that is also the colder time of day, the absence of such striping on my thin shirts does not really bother me: I will be wearing some jacket in any case. I have stuck some reflective stripes on my Goretex and Windstopper cycling jackets, and that does a decent job, even if it does not meet any standards. To really meet those standards, I either need to wear a professional workwear vest, or buy an EN 471 Goretex workwear raincoat. The bad news is that the latter really are rather heavy.
So I make do, in the absense of serious cycling specific clothing that meets EN 471 standards, not even class 2. The fact that there is none (at least that I know of), really is a disgrace.
Willem
Instead of worrrying about what you can get away with, I think the smart thing to do is to get the best there is: EN 471 class 3. It does not cost any more, and it is designed for the most demanding situations for road side workers - that is precisely the gear a cyclist wants, I think.
The practical problem is that there really is hardly any cycling specific gear that meets these standards. There is clothing with a hi viz yellow colour, but nothing that also has reflective striping of the kind required by any of the standards. All you can hope for is a bit of piping and small reflective details.
The question is what to do, other than wear an EN 471 vest at all time. I have chosen to buy some hi viz yellow Brooks Nightlife running shirts, socks, and a jacket. As sports clothing I have been very happy with the stuff, and as long as you are riding in day time or at dusk, the dayglow colour is magnificently visible. The problem comes at night. Then the fluo colour no longer works, and you really need the reflective striping. Since that is also the colder time of day, the absence of such striping on my thin shirts does not really bother me: I will be wearing some jacket in any case. I have stuck some reflective stripes on my Goretex and Windstopper cycling jackets, and that does a decent job, even if it does not meet any standards. To really meet those standards, I either need to wear a professional workwear vest, or buy an EN 471 Goretex workwear raincoat. The bad news is that the latter really are rather heavy.
So I make do, in the absense of serious cycling specific clothing that meets EN 471 standards, not even class 2. The fact that there is none (at least that I know of), really is a disgrace.
Willem
