Holding cars up again....

[Twanger]

Inspired by the other post, I thought I'd ask - it's something I've been wondering about for some time, and I really don't know all the answer.

It's the A23 running into London at 7.45am. Brixton road. Just where it runs into Camberwell New Road. There are lights, two lanes of traffic and one of those lanes on the left that run into an ASL. There are a LOT of bikes going into town at that time, all filtering down the left.

Most of the traffic, motor as well as cycle, continues along Brixton road and into Kennington Park Road. Some traffic turns left into Camberwell New Road to wait at the lights opposite the Oval tube station. That traffic often backs up.

It occasionally happens (it happened to me yesterday) that cars turning left just push through the bikes that have backed up at the lights, forcing them to stop, or even off the road. It's dangerous and discourteous, but that's what they do.

But what I want to know is this. Legally, if a car that is just in front of me but to my right in the "car" lane (sorry!) is turning left, and I am waiting behind other bikes in the little access lane that runs into the ASL, I am supposed to give way? Or is the car supposed to wait until all the bikes have gone through?

The highway code seems pretty clear. It says not to cut in on cyclists (rule 182). But that is cyclists moving. When the bike has stopped behind the car, but not actually in the ASL itself, does that rule still apply? Do the backed up bikes constitute another lane of traffic?

 

[fossyant]

Don't expect a balanced view from this lot in here - it will end up a slanging match again.

Must say there are some folk dragging this forum right down the pan.

 

[Twanger]

I am really looking for an answer here. It's a technical issue. I don't see why it should degenerate into a slagging match.

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

But what I want to know is this. Legally, if a car that is just in front of me but to my right in the "car" lane (sorry!) is turning left, and I am waiting behind other bikes in the little access lane that runs into the ASL, I am supposed to give way? Or is the car supposed to wait until all the bikes have gone through?

The highway code seems pretty clear. It says not to cut in on cyclists (rule 182). But that is cyclists moving. When the bike has stopped behind the car, but not actually in the ASL itself, does that rule still apply? Do the backed up bikes constitute another lane of traffic?

If the car is in front of you, albeit to the right, and it is indicating left, then you should give it priority.

 

[Twanger]

If the car is in front of you, albeit to the right, and it is indicating left, then you should give it priority.

That's the answer I was looking for. Thanks. So I shouldn't start off until that car has turned left. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place, but the highway code doesn't seem to be clear (I never took a driving test in this country).

Or maybe, and more likely, the HC was not constructed to deal with situations where thirty cyclists are crowded to the left of two lines of motor traffic on the A23. It's not so easy to give way when you have a whole peloton behind you eager to get going...

 

[fossyant]

I am really looking for an answer here. It's a technical issue. I don't see why it should degenerate into a slagging match.

Well, you got the answer quickly, but wait for the mob to arrive

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

That's the answer I was looking for. Thanks. So I shouldn't start off until that car has turned left. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place, but the highway code doesn't seem to be clear (I never took a driving test in this country).

There is no specific advice for this situation, but rule 167 says: "DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example ..." followed by a long, but not exhaustive, list of examples. The precise situation you quote does not appear in the list, but certainly does appear to come within the scope of this rule.

 

[pshore]

But what I want to know is this. Legally, if a car that is just in front of me but to my right in the "car" lane (sorry!) is turning left, and I am waiting behind other bikes in the little access lane that runs into the ASL, I am supposed to give way? Or is the car supposed to wait until all the bikes have gone through?

The highway code seems pretty clear. It says not to cut in on cyclists (rule 182). But that is cyclists moving. When the bike has stopped behind the car, but not actually in the ASL itself, does that rule still apply? Do the backed up bikes constitute another lane of traffic?

While there are separate lanes (i.e. the feeder lane) it is a lane change for the driver, but beyond the stop box there is no lane marking, so it effectively becomes a merge and I would say the rules of filtering apply.

Filtering rules are often defined by court cases and, for example, the difference between undertaking and filtering is a grey area. Safety first IMO.

Its far easier to be assertive and either get ahead or if not possible fall back and let a gap appear for the car. In your example above, I would just fall back. Actually, I would try to avoid stopping in the feeder lane at all. Easier said than done though in heavy traffic.

 

[gaz]

Thow the legal side of it out the window.
From a pure safety point of view you should let the car go. Don't keep your self in that offside position when a car is about to turn left. Remember the ASZ is not a target!

 

[Twanger]

Actually, I would try to avoid stopping in the feeder lane at all. Easier said than done though in heavy traffic.

Completely impossible at that junction! There is no other square inch of space to stop. The ASL is full (often of motorbikes).

 

[gaz]

Completely impossible at that junction! There is no other square inch of space to stop. The ASL is full (often of motorbikes).

I used to use that junction daily and occasionally still do use it. It really is not impossible to stay out of the feeder lane, you know the chances of you getting to the ASZ is minimal, you know that vehicles turn left there.
I'm not saying don't filter, i'm just saying don't use the feeder lane and don't stay to the left.

 

[400bhp]

So it's this junction?

And, essentially you are continuing along the A23 (i.e in the second lane where the Mann Lorry is)?

Then, my understanding is you shouldn't be in the LH lane (first lane) at all. You are inviting the left hook (which think is what you have described).

Not easy, and perhaps this is a case of "must pass the cars to get to the ASL"?

 

[gaz]

So it's this junction?

And, essentially you are continuing along the A23 (i.e in the second lane where the Mann Lorry is)?

Then, my understanding is you shouldn't be in the LH lane (first lane) at all. You are inviting the left hook (which think is what you have described).

Not easy, and perhaps this is a case of "must pass the cars to get to the ASL"?

Both the general lanes go straight on, but you can also turn left from the left lane. It doesn't happen often though.

 

[400bhp]

Right-then I guess it reverts back to your 1st post.

 

[Twanger]

Thanks for setting me straight!

Yes, there is an element of "must make the ASL".

But it is very rare for cars to turn left, and when they do into backed up traffic from the lights further down ( very common in the rush hour), then the road is blocked.

Anyway, I have the answer.