How do animals have thoughts?

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Tin Pot

Guru
[QUOTE 4930473, member: 9609"]I used to know someone through work who had been born deaf and could not speak (used to make squeaking noises) She could read and write perfectly well and I am wondering now how she would have constructed the words in her head if she had never heard them spoken, presumably created her own pronunciations ? or could you read in another way?

At least when I read I say the words to myself in my head, I'm guessing others do the same, or do others read in a different way ? and I don't mean reading stuff out aloud, I only do this if I can't understand it, not that getting the words to come out of my mouth and go back in through my ears helps,[/QUOTE]

Likely she experiences thought in purely visual terms, maybe with touch and smell added in. of course, we all attach feelings to words or concepts as well.
 
A good question.
I sort of see what you are getting at, in that they don't hear the thought voice in their head like a song being played or your favourite clip from a movie being played out.
There must be some sort of communication and thought process that we are totally unaware of. A couple of instances being how lions set up a trap in the wild. One lion will lie in wait whilst the others will drive the animals towards it. The other instance I can think of communication and thought process was the one where a Husky made friends with a Polar Bear in play which then communicated the idea to other Polar Bears who also joined in.
I was just thinking of one of my cat's which you could visibly see that he was thinking.
We have got mirror doors on our bedroom wardrobe and Trent our cat liked to sit next to them. One day I watched him staring into the strange room beyond the glass, totally ignoring the cat in front of him. Every now and then he would turn round and check behind him to discover that both rooms contained similar objects.
It was like watching cogs whirring.
 

Fnaar

Smutmaster General
Location
Thumberland
[QUOTE 4930473, member: 9609"]I used to know someone through work who had been born deaf and could not speak (used to make squeaking noises) She could read and write perfectly well and I am wondering now how she would have constructed the words in her head if she had never heard them spoken, presumably created her own pronunciations ? or could you read in another way?

At least when I read I say the words to myself in my head, I'm guessing others do the same, or do others read in a different way ? and I don't mean reading stuff out aloud, I only do this if I can't understand it, not that getting the words to come out of my mouth and go back in through my ears helps,[/QUOTE]

That's a very good point and question. I'm sat here trying to work that one out. I can't see how she could.

Likely she experiences thought in purely visual terms, maybe with touch and smell added in. of course, we all attach feelings to words or concepts as well.

Oh dear, there is often such a failure of imagination about this on the part of “people who use words” (and I am one)! This is hard.

Deaf people don’t need “words” to form their thoughts. “Words” are their second language - their first language is “Sign”. Their use of it to form their thoughts, opinions, feelings, view of the world is almost incomprehensible to people who use “words”. Because, inevitably, the mass (majority) of people who use “words” automatically assume that “speech” is superior in every way and somehow essential to being human. Therefore, anyone who doesn’t automatically use “speech” must be inferior, or disabled.

This is why discussions like this always slide from wondering how Deaf people frame their thoughts without “words” to talking about how a pride of lions manages to communicate without “words”. It’s also why calling Deaf people “deaf and dumb” is so incredibly offensive, with its connotation of “dumb animal”. Deaf children have historically been treated as “pre-word” and almost like “dumb animals”, being made to sit on their hands to stop them using their first language (Sign) and to force them to learn an alien language (Words/Speech), which amounts to child abuse. Much of Deaf history is shocking and horrible, due to the arrogance and tyranny of “word-users”.

Deaf people have to learn “words”, of course, for convenience in a world that is entirely built around speech. Many Deaf people can and do learn to speak, although their speech is usually very recognisable as “deaf speech”. Many of them these days have cochlear implants, so that they can “hear” speech in some form for convenience, but this does not mean that they accept that speech is superior to sign (and the surgery has been a hotly disputed topic in the Deaf world for years). But their first language is Sign, and they regard themselves not as a disabled group, but as a linguistic minority, disadvantaged by having to live in a world where their natural language is hardly acknowledged. This is why there is a distinction between “deaf” (person who has lost some or all of their hearing) and “Deaf” (usually born deaf and uses sign).

This subject is, as you can see, somewhat of a hobby-horse of mine. Because of a profoundly deaf friend I embarked on learning BSL. Naively, and arrogantly, I thought that you learned the sign for a word, then substituted the one for the other. In fact, you have to learn a totally different method of communicating ideas and a totally different world view. It is both fascinating and incredibly difficult for anyone who hasn’t grown up in contact with the Deaf world, but very much worth it.

It is also very difficult to explain properly, and I suspect that I have failed here. I just hope any Deaf forum members and lurkers will forgive me!

As @User13710 says. Some answers here: http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/07/how-deaf-people-think/
 

Tin Pot

Guru
Deaf people don’t need “words” to form their thoughts. “Words” are their second language - their first language is “Sign”. Their use of it to form their thoughts, opinions, feelings, view of the world is almost incomprehensible to people who use “words”.

@Accy cyclist
Language is the key concept here - as you know there are many kinds of language, some written, some spoken, some signed, maths and code fit into this paradigm.

As long as you have language, you have a frame of reference for thought.
 

Tin Pot

Guru

Fnaar

Smutmaster General
Location
Thumberland
I don't suppose you know what evidence here is behind these statements? I've always wondered precisely how true it is that language enables thought - it throws up some interesting philosophical questions around self awareness and consciousness, e.g. how did these thoughts come about before the language existed to allow them.
It's a can of worms really, but wiki gives some useful summaries and jumping-off points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_and_thought
 

MacB

Lover of things that come in 3's
I'm not sure I'd ever be equipped to understand a deaf persons conceptual understanding of language. I caught some of that Autistic Gardener show on TV and the star, Alan Gardner tried to explain how he perceived the world around him. I found that very hard to follow and he can speak and hear:-

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/...eos/all/s1-ep4-radical-overhaul/4367294571001


For starters I'm musically tone deaf(if that is still the correct/accepted term) and I have a negative level of flair for artistic things. Though I did experience some comfort when @threebikesmcginty revealed his musical tastes to the forum and I realised I wasn't the worst.
 

Welsh wheels

Lycra king
Location
South Wales
Watching my dog sleep tonight a thought entered my head. If they (dogs) can't speak a language how do they think? Surely to have thoughts you have to be able to say words in your head. If you can't speak a language then surely you can't think? Also,if a human was brought up without human contact,by animals, surely that human wouldn't be able to think? This is as serious question by the way.
My Alsatian is reading this thread on the other laptop, he's spilled his beer and pooped himself laughing.
 
Cheers, it's also interesting that it follows that if we lose languages - of any kind - we lose ways of thinking.

Bizarre, but apparently true.
During one of my episodes I lost the voice in my head which accompanies my thoughts and whilst I'm reading, it wasn't nice, my mind was a total blank yet I knew something was wrong. It may be hard to explain or understand but it very reassuring when it returned.
 
Let me see now I think therefore I am.
Look on it as natural engineering.

I think digitally then it goes to a Language assembler.
Where sentences are constructed, then on to codec converter.
Where the digital is converted into an analogue signal,
Because the Larynx is like a speaker and needs an analogue signal to work.
Now we are putting our thoughts into words, we have an emotional link with
each word spoken.
So because we use the same neurones that run the complex facial emotional expressions,
also run the new Larynx voice box (evolution in full swing)
As each word is spoken, the emotion of the word flashes in sink across the face.
This is at a camera shutter speed about .3 to .4 of a seconded in a Italians, slower
in most northern Europeans.
Most people can learn to read this involuntary facial communication, and if the emotions
do not match the speech, you have a lie.

Combine facial recognition tech with this new emerging science inexperience
police officers and the court will know a lie at a hundred yards.

I am now thinking quietly with a glass of wine to help, for the best is yet to come.
 
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