How will cyclists ever get the respect of road users?

[hackbike 666]

Got to agree with the last two posters?
What is the problem with getting to work a few minutes late anyway.I think stopping at traffic lights is good road manners.Must be doing something right I got let out by another beemer on today's commute. :-)

 

[Twanger]

Sorry Ben but I can get very annoyed at them for that. Yes, bikes travel slower than cars, but they don't take up as much room and with the slightest degree of sense and patience FROM ALL PARTIES we could all get along fine. Just because someone fears they'd have to slow down for all of 50 yards doesn't mean it's OK for them to squeeze past me at a pinch point, for example. Just how much time are they likely to lose by waiting behind?

Yup. I think the root of the problem is this: if you look at the system of habits and tendencies of road use behaviour, they make up a road use "culture". This culture is different for cyclists and motorists because basically we want different things out of the roads. "cycling" culture and "driving" culture are different. Motorists are used to having everything their own way, we are in the way, and they hate us for it. And vice versa!

If a genuine "road culture" that suits both groups of road users is to happen, it will have to be consciously built. Not just by the police controlling things, as Hackbike suggests earlier in the thread (but he's right that there's a role there!), but by individual road users make individual choices to build it. And part of this means cyclists deciding not to RLJ.

I spent years in Turkey, the last two being in Istanbul. I would not dare cycle there because the road culture sees bikes as wheels on a pedestrian and nothing else. Here is so much better...but it's ONLY better because of the much better choices road users make in this country. We need them to be better still.

 

[theboytaylor]

Yup. I think the root of the problem is this: if you look at the system of habits and tendencies of road use behaviour, they make up a road use "culture". This culture is different for cyclists and motorists because basically we want different things out of the roads. "cycling" culture and "driving" culture are different. Motorists are used to having everything their own way, we are in the way, and they hate us for it. And vice versa!

If a genuine "road culture" that suits both groups of road users is to happen, it will have to be consciously built. Not just by the police controlling things, as Hackbike suggests earlier in the thread (but he's right that there's a role there!), but by individual road users make individual choices to build it. And part of this means cyclists deciding not to RLJ.

I spent years in Turkey, the last two being in Istanbul. I would not dare cycle there because the road culture sees bikes as wheels on a pedestrian and nothing else. Here is so much better...but it's ONLY better because of the much better choices road users make in this country. We need them to be better still.

+ 1. Very well said.

 

[boydj]

RLJing aside, I think people are overlooking a fundamentel point when considering cyclo-moto (I think I just made that word up, feel free to use it) relations. Motorists don't think favourably towards cyclists because we're slow. They want to get from A to B as quickly as possible and we hold them up. That's all. You can't blame them for getting a bit annoyed at that, surely.

The key point here is that motorists who think they are being held up by bikes are 99% of the time just wrong. in all the years I've been commuting by bike I've never had a queue of cars waiting behind me and very seldom had a single car have to wait more than a couple of seconds to get past even when I've had to take the lane for some reason.

Bikes might be slow compared to cars, but in busy traffic, we seem to get there more quickly anyway.

 

[purplepolly]

The answer to the OP is that cyclists will gain the respect of other road users when obeying the rules of the road becomes the norm rather than a surprising exception.

And when do other road users start to obey the rules of the road?

Every day I see the majority of motorists doing about 40 in 30 zones, every day I see motorists RLJing, every week at least I see someone deliberately drive through a pelican crossing on red.

How many actually overtake at the HC recommended distance? How often do they stop in ASLs? How often do cars block the pavement? How much did my previous council, Macclesfield, have to spend on the policing the A54 because of its popularity as a motorcycling racetrack.

OK this isn't an excuse for cyclists to RLJ and do whatever they want but it does annoy me that motorists have become so accustomed to dangerous driving that they no longer see it.

 

[Twanger]

The key point here is that motorists who think they are being held up by bikes are 99% of the time just wrong. in all the years I've been commuting by bike I've never had a queue of cars waiting behind me and very seldom had a single car have to wait more than a couple of seconds to get past even when I've had to take the lane for some reason.

Bikes might be slow compared to cars, but in busy traffic, we seem to get there more quickly anyway.

I know what you mean, but I often have a queue of cars behind me...down Railton Road in Brixton, for example, where the road is not really wide enough for two cars to pass easily if there's anyone parked, but it's such a useful link people use it anyway. Cars often have to wait for oncoming traffic to go through.

Most motorists are patient with each other in waiting, AND patient with cyclists....other than some cretin recently who decided that overtaking me on a corner and fifty yards from a stop line was his moral duty as a legitimate road user...and I was the "moron" whose presence in "the middle of the road" was making it dangerous (he actually brushed me).

I think that the key point is that motorists are right in thinking that they are held up by cyclists, because they are. But a significant group won't accept this in the same way as they accept being held up by other motorists.

 

[Twanger]

And when do other road users start to obey the rules of the road?

Every day I see the majority of motorists doing about 40 in 30 zones, every day I see motorists RLJing, every week at least I see someone deliberately drive through a pelican crossing on red.

How many actually overtake at the HC recommended distance? How often do they stop in ASLs? How often do cars block the pavement? How much did my previous council, Macclesfield, have to spend on the policing the A54 because of its popularity as a motorcycling racetrack.

OK this isn't an excuse for cyclists to RLJ and do whatever they want but it does annoy me that motorists have become so accustomed to dangerous driving that they no longer see it.

Yup. You are right. We need to assert clearly our presence on the road, and our right to use it.

AND stop RLJing.

(edit)

Look, what I mean is that we are not in some kind of Samurai face-off with motorists, where the first person to move loses. We need to start somewhere, and a strong campaign against RLJing is somewhere. ALL RLJing, not just cyclists.

 

[HJ]

RLJing aside, I think people are overlooking a fundamentel point when considering cyclo-moto (I think I just made that word up, feel free to use it) relations. Motorists don't think favourably towards cyclists because we're slow. They want to get from A to B as quickly as possible and we hold them up. That's all. You can't blame them for getting a bit annoyed at that, surely.

And it's not just bikes: I think at some point a lot of motorists also "hate" every other car/lorry/tractor/motorbike between themselves and their destination. If other road users weren't there, they'd be home sooner to; watch hollyoaks/put the kids to bed/have that poo they should have had before they left the office. fact.

ben

As a cyclist in town I am not slower that motorists and hold them up. One of the reasons I use a bike in town is because it is faster than other forms of transport, and it would be faster still if there were all those stupid motorists clogging up the roads. They chose to drive, they chose to sit in traffic jams, that is not my fault. If, on occasions I need to ride in the primary position for my safety, why should they think that their convenience is more important? They should either, get off their fat arses and travel the fast way, or simple accept the consequences of their chosen mode to travel. It is not my fault.

 

[theboytaylor]

Yup. You are right. We need to assert clearly our presence on the road, and our right to use it.

AND stop RLJing.

(edit)

Look, what I mean is that we are not in some kind of Samurai face-off with motorists, where the first person to move loses. We need to start somewhere, and a strong campaign against RLJing is somewhere. ALL RLJing, not just cyclists.

Once again, +1 (sorry).

It may sound a bit pie in the sky but it would surely be to the benefit of all cyclists if it is their community that is seen to be the one acting responsibly. It is hardly surprising that cyclists' calls for greater respect for ourselves is frequently rebutted by accusations that we don't respect other road rules. Whether you think the things levelled at cyclists are fair or not and whether you regard them as less significant or dangerous than the actions of careless motor vehicle drivers, if they weren't occurring, there wouldn't be the ammunition for drivers to use.

 

[purplepolly]

As a cyclist in town I am not slower that motorists and hold them up. .

+ 1

In fact I spend considerably more time waiting behind cars than they do behind me, but that's because I don't like to filter unless there's plenty of room. Occasionally there's a bus or HGV behind where there's not much opportunity to overtake but then I pull over in a handy spot.

Despite the queueing and occasional stopping I still do my commute as fast on the bike as I do in the car. It's not my speed that slows the traffic down but the waiting in queues at traffic lights.

 

[wafflycat]

And when do other road users start to obey the rules of the road?

Every day I see the majority of motorists doing about 40 in 30 zones, every day I see motorists RLJing, every week at least I see someone deliberately drive through a pelican crossing on red.

How many actually overtake at the HC recommended distance? How often do they stop in ASLs? How often do cars block the pavement? How much did my previous council, Macclesfield, have to spend on the policing the A54 because of its popularity as a motorcycling racetrack.

OK this isn't an excuse for cyclists to RLJ and do whatever they want but it does annoy me that motorists have become so accustomed to dangerous driving that they no longer see it.

The road through Wafflycat Village & the nearest town is a showcase for bad driving these days. Through the village it's a 50 limit. Then up to a 50 limit, down to a 40 limit as you go through the next bit of residential, back up to 50 for sporadic residential, down to 40 on the outskirts of town and then to a 30 limit. When driving, I feel more and more that yours truly is the only person who is aware of what the clearly signposted limits are. It is a depressing state of affairs, as I can be driving at the speed limt (if road is clear in front) and I will get people overtaking me, people behind flashing their headlights as they seem to think that doing a sniff under 40 in a 40 limit is too slow. Go figure. I see loads of motorists RLJ - indeed in Norwich I see far more motorists jumping red lights than cyclists. Increasingly I see motorists ignoring mini-roundabouts and treating them as ordinary junctions so that on a turn they effectively go the wrong way round the roundabout.

The bottom line is that all road users have bad elements. As regards the insane spoutings of petrol-headed tosspots towards cyclists, well, if it isn't 'all cyclists jump red lights' it's 'bloody cyclists on the footpath' or 'get off my road as you don't pay road tax' It's a bully's mentality. They whine if a cyclist is on the footpath and they whine if a cyclist is on the road. They whine if a cyclist jumps a red light, when motorists do it too.

 

[diamondwhite]

Well, that's why sensible people get insurance, so that they have something when the terrible happens. OK, your no claims bonus goes, but that's actuarial, not a God given right.

But any other road user, motorcyclist, bus, tractor, truck, street-cleaner, military vehicle, etc has insurance from which I could recover my costs. I have insurance in case something happens that is my fault as well as the negligence or actions of others (vandalism for example). Just as my insurance levies a fee for MIB to cover for those Wkers that drive without insurance etc.
My point is not only is it a personal cost to me emotionally it is a cost to me in terms of loss of earnings and higher premiums, financial costs I wouldn't have from anyone other than a cyclist disobeying the rules of the road.
Perhaps MIB will cover my costs but there is nothing about claiming for the situation I have described.

Again, much sympathy, but crap happens and it has to be dealt with. You got shat on, but there's no one else to pick it up for you.

The cyclist and the family are the victim they receive support from police and other services. The police themselves would admit that I'm as much a victim but the support isn't there. It's one of the cracks in the system.

Yes shoot happens, but if it happened to you, you may reflect differently and besides I'm not asking for any (sympathy). I'm trying to point out that there are consequences to the thoughtlessness of others and what some of those consequences are. It's not as simple as shoot happens.

 

[purplepolly]

But any other road user, motorcyclist, bus, tractor, truck, street-cleaner, military vehicle, etc has insurance from which I could recover my costs..

except pedestrians, users of mobility vehicles, horse riders...

 

[Twanger]

It's not as simple as shoot happens.

I didn't mean that. Not in that tone, anyway. Just that you are responsible for making sure your life works, no one else. You seem to be a bit tinged with the "I'm a victim, where's my right to support" bit. I'm just saying that sometimes it ain't there. It's only there when we make it so. There is no natural right to insurance or providential righting of wrongs by a benevolent universe. There is only what we make. Or so it seems to me. And there are many times in this universe when it acts outside, and against, the world we have made.

And you insure yourself for those times. Instead of saying "higher premiums", wouldn't it be better for your own mental health to think "Thank God I had insurance!"?

You hit a cyclist without insurance. The next motorist to hit me is fairly likely to be uninsured (I understand that up to a fifth of motorists are uninsured), but will be able to claim for his scratched paintwork or his shattered career prospects from my estate because, guess what, I DO have insurance. But one thing is certain. If I do get hit, it will not be when red light jumping because I don't do it.

I don't have third party insurance to benefit third parties, but to cover my own arse. But there you are. It's there!

I'm sorry you don't want sympathy, because your case clearly deserves it. And please don't see any of this as a rant or attack, because it is not intended to be.

 

[dellzeqq]

This is really simple. Really, really simple. Cyclists will get the respect of car drivers when there are more of us than there are of them. Rights, wrongs, behaviour, it's all beside the point. Car drivers kill 1100 people a year in this country, for no reason. That has no bearing on the respect they are accorded, least of all by politicians who letch after the car-driving vote with a vigour that would put Casanova to shame. Cyclists, who do little damage to the world, and ask for very little are very often treated with disdain.

Only in one part of the country, where cyclists are clearly becoming more numerous day by day, are cyclists consistently treated with respect by politicians, the local press and by car drivers. And that is because very often there are more of us than there are of them. And the corollary (sp?) of that is that cyclists are beginning to feel this, and to be more assertive, which is all to the good.