HS2 update...concern it may not happen? [get the flags out]
- Thread starter Archie_tect
- Start date
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FTFY
Luddite Joe
Über Member
- Location
- Swindon
Errm... I think it's going to run both ways.
Mad Doug Biker
Banned from every bar in the Galaxy
- Location
- Craggy Island
IT IS!! (Indirectly) The West Coast Main Line (WCML) is almost full to capacity, certainly in the Midlands, and by the time HS2 is built, it wont have come soon enough!! Getting long range high speed services off the southern part of the WCML will free up capacity considerably (from what I am/have been led to believe, existing Pendolino services will be able to use it a bit like the Javelin services on HS1 too, shooting the 'exclusivity' bollox out of the water, and also speeding up north - south services somewhat. The 'Bendy's have 140mph capacity), meaning that more local services and freight will be able to run on the WCML - it'll empty overnight. That sounds like an improvement to me!
I tell you what would be retarded beyond belief is if HS2 (or similar) isn't built and one of Britain's busiest Rail Arteries, i.e. the WCML (and its passengers) has to suffer for another 50 odd years!
Think of it as being a Heart Bypass operation for the West Coast. Invasive maybe, but necessary.
You can't make an omlette without breaking some eggs, sorry, and as was pointed out up thread, exactly the same concerns were expressed at HS1, and is it really as bad as the doom merchants predicted?? No, of course not!
U
User482
Guest
Yayyy, lets pander to the motorists rather than investing in infrastructure that will help take traffic off the roads...
There's no doubt that we have a shortage of rail capacity, but that could be solved at a far, far lower cost than HS2.
OP
OP
Archie_tect
De Skieven Architek... aka Penfold + Horace
- Location
- Northumberland
Thanks MDB- that's the sort of detail that is invaluable- excellent post! So, if that's the justification in practical terms.... all we need now is justification in procurement terms - problem is, I don't think a corruption of a PFI is the right way.IT IS!! (Indirectly) The West Coast Main Line (WCML) is almost full to capacity, certainly in the Midlands, and by the time HS2 is built, it wont have come soon enough!! Getting long range high speed services off the southern part of the WCML will free up capacity considerably (from what I am/have been led to believe, existing Pendolino services will be able to use it a bit like the Javelin services on HS1 too, shooting the 'exclusivity' bollox out of the water, and also speeding up north - south services somewhat. The 'Bendy's have 140mph capacity), meaning that more local services and freight will be able to run on the WCML - it'll empty overnight. That sounds like an improvement to me!
I tell you what would be retarded beyond belief is if HS2 (or similar) isn't built and one of Britain's busiest Rail Arteries, i.e. the WCML (and its passengers) has to suffer for another 50 odd years!
Think of it as being a Heart Bypass operation for the West Coast. Invasive maybe, but necessary.
You can't make an omlette without breaking some eggs, sorry, and as was pointed out up thread, exactly the same concerns were expressed at HS1, and is it really as bad as the doom merchants predicted?? No, of course not!
Unfortunately it is just not true - load factor (percent of seats occuplied) is very low (see https://www.stratford.gov.uk/files/seealsodocs/12316/51m Response to HS2 Consultation.pdf for a detailed case against HS2 - I was broadly in favour until I read this). When improvements already in train (ho-ho) are made, load factor will be just 35%.
2012 figures show Euston is the least busy London domestic long-distance station – using just 60 per cent of capacity in the three-hour morning peak, compared to equivalent figures at Paddington and Waterloo stations of over 100 per cent at peak times.
Virgin’s peak evening services from Euston are only 56 per cent full and Manchester trains only 45 per cent - this is because of very high peak fares, which means trains after 7pm ARE very full - a situation that can be fixed for a bit less than 40bn+
Some of the faults of the scheme:
1/ A 400kph speed rather than 300kph - needs very straight track, makes far more noise for around a 6-8 minute time saving London to Birmingham
2/ A new station in Birmingham with no easy connections to elsewhere in the West Midlands
3/ A huge spend on running it into Euston and rebuilding Euston, which does not have great onward connections. Old Oak would be a much cheaper site to buil on, has tube connections to the Bakerloo, Central. Will have to CrossRail which will be able to take increased services from the west of Paddington, plus London Overground, with scope for running some trains into the old Chunnel terminal at Waterloo or down towards Gatwick.
Then there is the opportunity cost. The North of England has lousy express services - it takes ages to get from Liverpool to Newcastle. How about improvements that make those as fast as the best services from London?
Arch
Married to Night Train
- Location
- Salford, UK
IT IS!! (Indirectly) The West Coast Main Line (WCML) is almost full to capacity, certainly in the Midlands, and by the time HS2 is built, it wont have come soon enough!! Getting long range high speed services off the southern part of the WCML will free up capacity considerably (from what I am/have been led to believe, existing Pendolino services will be able to use it a bit like the Javelin services on HS1 too, shooting the 'exclusivity' bollox out of the water, and also speeding up north - south services somewhat. The 'Bendy's have 140mph capacity), meaning that more local services and freight will be able to run on the WCML - it'll empty overnight. That sounds like an improvement to me!
I tell you what would be retarded beyond belief is if HS2 (or similar) isn't built and one of Britain's busiest Rail Arteries, i.e. the WCML (and its passengers) has to suffer for another 50 odd years!
Think of it as being a Heart Bypass operation for the West Coast. Invasive maybe, but necessary.
You can't make an omlette without breaking some eggs, sorry, and as was pointed out up thread, exactly the same concerns were expressed at HS1, and is it really as bad as the doom merchants predicted?? No, of course not!
That's all very lovely if you want to travel from London to the North West. I don't very often. I want to travel transpennine a lot, and sometimes NE to East Midlands, or NE to Hampshire. Even once I've moved to Manchester, I suspect the amount I'll want to travel to London is limited....
My main gripe, I think, is that whatever the benefits, I don't trust the whole thing not to be massively over budget, hugely late, and generally crap, with companies then using it to run as cheap a service as they can for the biggest prices they can get away with...
Mad Doug Biker
Banned from every bar in the Galaxy
- Location
- Craggy Island
I cannot open the link for some reason, so I cannot see the details, but you will notice in my original post that I didn't mention Euston as such, I said 'The Midlands'. I might have referred to high speed services, I agree, but normal commuter services are just as much to blame. The Trent Valley line for example is seemingly turning into a bit of a bottle neck with everything using it. The alternative route is through New Street which has its own set of problems. If growth is going to continue as it is, then sooner or later something is gonna give anyway!
I cannot really comment on the cost as I have not been following it as closely as I perhaps should, and yes, it sounds like a fightening amount of money, but, FOR WHAT IT IS (I wonder how many have actually truly grasped the enormity of the project so far), spread out over the next 20 years or whatever it is, it suddenly doesn't seem so bad in relation to some other things the Guvimint spends on certain things!
And please, tell me what is this great, noble (and faintly mythical) cause people always refer too that the Government should be spending money on instead anyway?? You know and I know that the money would just be frittered away on nothing in particular it'd just vanish and we'd never see any of it ever again, so stop kidding yourselves*.
It is a bit like these 'Better Together' bods in Scotland who keep telling us
'Together we can make a better Scotland'
Well matey, you have only had 300 years to do something, what makes me think you are suddenly going to have some big 'Road to Damascus' moment and actually follow through on what you say now??
* - Yes yes, I know, railway construction consultation fees, etc, etc, I'd rather the money would be saved there too, but at least there would be something to see from the money at the end, instead of the money just disappearing into the ether like what usually happens.
And you know what? You may be right and it turns out to be a white elephant, but on seeing HS1, its a chance I'd take!
Mad Doug Biker
Banned from every bar in the Galaxy
- Location
- Craggy Island
You've picked one tiny little factor - seat loading - which is, to all intents and purposes irrelevant to the discussion around capacity...
The capacity issue is about the ability to get actual trains, including freight trains, onto a system which is creaking at the seams. It's not about counting seating uptake.
Exactly! Put it another way, a road doesn't become busy due to the amount of people in the cars, but because of the number of cars on the road itself!
