Improving Swimming Technique

[zizou]

While I don't disagree with Zizou that some people don't get on with three strokes and breathing on alternate sides, what you're doing is never going to be efficient because you are completely messing with your breathing if you are constantly changing how many strokes you take between breaths.It is going to be counterproductive.

Irregular breathing is a common training exercise to improve lung capacity. For a longer distance swim, particularly when fatiqued then i dont think 4-2-4 will be easy to maintain (and it would likely be detrimental to performance doing so) and it would drop to every 2nd stroke, but otherwise if that is what xxmimixx feels comfortable doing when training then i dont see a problem. Different people experience oxygen debt in different ways and if someone feels good going 4-2-4 then they should stick to that.

 

[gambatte]

What about.
100m(?) swim with right arm extended, stroke only with left arm, breath on left side
100m(?) swim with left arm extended, stroke with right arm only, breath on right side
100m, normal stroke, alternate breathing each side every 3rd stroke?
1st 2 get used to breathing on a particular side, 3rd brings it together?

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Irregular breathing is a common training exercise to improve lung capacity. For a longer distance swim, particularly when fatiqued then i dont think 4-2-4 will be easy to maintain (and it would likely be detrimental to performance doing so) and it would drop to every 2nd stroke, but otherwise if that is what xxmimixx feels comfortable doing when training then i dont see a problem. Different people experience oxygen debt in different ways and if someone feels good going 4-2-4 then they should stick to that.

The problem is, Zizou, that anyone can easily feel completely comfortable doing something that is really inefficient and not as good as one could be. If the aim is just to be a leisure swimmer then there's no problem. But if someone wants to improve and compete, they need to have someone else look at what they are doing and why. That's why we all need coaching. I am not expecting anyone to change everything based on the specific advice that I or you or anyone else offers here (although I did drills like gambatte when I was taught how to breathe properly), but what they should be doing, if they really want to improve, is get real world help. There really is no substitute.

 

[fimm]

Very much agree with Flying Monkey.

WRT cost, I've had coaching with my triathlon club, and through a Masters swim set (though this one was more like an "advanced adult improvers" set in the slower lane: it was run by a man who is also a member of our triathlon club. Some Masters clubs are more aimed at people who have swum since childhood and assume you can do fly and stuff...). The Masters swim was in the Council pool so I didn't pay anything over the membership I was paying anyway.

I agree that elite swimmers often breathe one sided when they are racing. However they will undoubtedly breathe on both sides while training. And they're elites and we're not. In open water, it can be an advantage to be able to breathe either side, as you can then avoid the sun in your eyes, or chop coming in on one side, for example.

(I've done sets along the lines of "first length breathe every 2nd stroke, second length breathe every 3rd..." up to breathing every 7th stroke on the 6th length! I really can't remember what the coaching point is - something non-intuitive, IIRC. It made sense at the time.)

 

[zizou]

The problem is, Zizou, that anyone can easily feel completely comfortable doing something that is really inefficient and not as good as one could be. If the aim is just to be a leisure swimmer then there's no problem. But if someone wants to improve and compete, they need to have someone else look at what they are doing and why. That's why we all need coaching. I am not expecting anyone to change everything based on the specific advice that I or you or anyone else offers here (although I did drills like gambatte when I was taught how to breathe properly), but what they should be doing, if they really want to improve, is get real world help. There really is no substitute.

I agree with what you are saying about coaching just disagree with the point made about breathing bilaterally as opposed to on the one side. Someone can have poor, inefficient technique breathing every 3rd stroke just the same as someone else may have good, efficient technique breathing every 2 (and vice versa). Breathing when needed and making sure you get the technique around that sorted is more important than whether it is every 2, 3 or 4.

 

[zizou]

I agree that elite swimmers often breathe one sided when they are racing. However they will undoubtedly breathe on both sides while training. And they're elites and we're not. In open water, it can be an advantage to be able to breathe either side, as you can then avoid the sun in your eyes, or chop coming in on one side, for example.

(I've done sets along the lines of "first length breathe every 2nd stroke, second length breathe every 3rd..." up to breathing every 7th stroke on the 6th length! I really can't remember what the coaching point is - something non-intuitive, IIRC. It made sense at the time.)

Like i said in my first post - doing some training bilaterally is good practice, i'm not denying there is a training benefit from being able to do it, i'm just saying there is no competitive or efficiency benefit in choosing one or the other. Although often the drill will be breathing and looking at the same side of the pool, rather than changing frequency of breathing.

The session you mention would be to improve aerobic conditioning and also to make sure your stroke doesnt suffer when you really need some air. In a race i guess the frequency would tend to be the other way about maybe that is the non-intuitive part?

 

[Arsen Gere]

Have a look at Sun Yang for inspiration. See youtube and search for "Sun Yang 1500m Shanghai". He is a smooths swimmer. If you look at the whole 14 mins for 1500m he hardly looks like he is trying, his legs hardly move his arms are so slow.

Then look at Laure Manaudou. She's a bit of a swinger, arms that is. As opposed to being a front quadrant swimmer like Yang and Thorpe. Loads of good slow mo vids on Thorpe too.

Yang is 6 foot 6 and does 28 strokes per length. Manaudou is 5' 11' does around 45 over the same 50m. Keri-Anne Payne the 10k swimmer does a faster stroke rate.

These are extremes. The point being you need to find what works best for you and no one here can tell you what's best.

IMHO it is no coincidence that there are patterns to cadence in human efficieny, pedalling at 95 rpm, Gebresalasie runs at around 185 steps/min or 93 rpm and so on. So a faster cadence is probably better for triathlon and in particular choppy water if you are not a giant.

I struggle with the technicalities of swimming more than the bike or running and I have been tracking my performance by doing a 400m TT in a 25 and 50m pool for the past couple of years as a benchmark.

There is a definite correlation between distance swam and 400m time, my fastest 100m was 1:26 at cadence of 0.7 sec/stroke i.e. hand entering water. So cadence is correlated too.
I use a finis tempo trainer to get this right. At a s/r of 0.95 I can't beat 1.33.

IMHO the swim smooth stuff can only take you so far in impoving your efficiency, then like cycling and running you need to look at volume, strength and cadence.

 

[Arsen Gere]

BTW watch Sun Yang breath. He sometimes breathes on EVERY stroke before a turn.

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-ZMbiem-V8

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6GmflekO_g

 

[gambatte]

ok, positive post from me. longest I've swum in one go is 400m. So I'm happy with tonight.
warmed up with various drills. The stuff I suggested earlier, catchup drills with and without pullbuoy.
Then I hit my main part of the session
I wanted to do 8x100m with 15-30s break between sets (gave myself a band as the pools busy) I wanted 8 as it takes me over the 750m sprint distance.
I actually felt good
Ended up doing 15 x 100m
I guess thats olympic distance.... just got to get rid of the rests

 

[Arsen Gere]

Gambatte it sounds like you are enjoying yourself. But take care, if you increase the load or volume by more than say 10% a week you risk injury. Shoulders are a real problem for swimmers. A sore shoulder can stop you doing the bike and runs too.
One problem I've had recently is that longer distance swims made my ankles ache when running but not riding the bike. I upped the distance too fast.

 

[gambatte]

Ta, but its a couple of days since my last coached session - and I get pushed a lot harder in there. I took it steady, paced myself.
I've got a bit of experience with upping the volume too much - did it running when I started. That'll probably be me done till the weekend.

I've embraced the term 'adaptation'

I always felt guilty about 'rest days' till someone pointed out that training is about stressing your body then allowing it to repair and adapt. Adapting is part of training. So now I don't have rest days. I have 'adaptation days'

 

[loops]

I did my first two widths freestyle to make 5om then needed a good minute to recover, however last week could only do one so minor improvement. Hoping some swimming improvers lessons this wiil get me bit further and am feeling very glad that the tri season is not imminent!!

 

[Arsen Gere]

Loops, I would not worry how long it takes you to recover. Recovery takes care of itself as you get fitter and adapt to swimming. If I were you I'd concentrate on developing efficency As you repeat your efforts, the number of reps increase. Then by dropping the intensity a bit you can join up 50's to 100's and then 400's. Before you know it you'l be doing 1500m and a mile.
It does not matter how good a runner or cyclist you are swimming is different and requires its own adaptation based around good technique. So keep at it!

 

[xxmimixx]

thanks for all the replies I'll keep doing what I am doing for now (so that by switching I dont get to pick up bad habits) but with the view to get some coachin within the next few weeks.
Arsen thanks for sharing that video of Sun Yang, it's incredible how smoothly he swims, it even looks like he doesnt move his fit for a second or so every other kick, then when that official rings the bell to alert him of the last 100m his feet make foam like a powerboat!!! He's amazing!

I might put the Finis Tempo Trainer in my Christmas wish list. What about pull buoys and hand paddles/webbed gloves, are they good training tools and worth getting/using?

 

[gambatte]

Pullbuoy and float, I've used since I started. Fins I'm not sure about, but its awkward being allowed to use them round here.
Paddles I've been advised its too soon for me. I've been told they're good, but I won't need them for another 6 months. They can have negative effects, too much strain on your shoulder too soon.