Is a driver getting out of their car an act of potential aggression?

[WJHall]

Just an observation, but I've found the expectations of what constitutes a close cyclist-cyclist overtake depends a lot on the local cycling culture. For example, I was surprised how close other cyclists would pass (or how little room I was given to pass) on Dutch feitpads. I think London is going the same way; as numbers increase there's less room per cyclist, but also a greater expectation and acceptance of closer riding.

Quite possible that Londoners have different expectations about personal space from we West Country folk, but now that I have looked at it several times I increasingly see the lady cyclist as the real source of the problem. The driver seems to slow down to almost the speed of the cyclists, and assess the situation before moving forward, I would not be impressed with the distance he leaves but it is not too unusual. I think he can be accused of misjudgement and of not understanding the distance that should be allowed. You will note the fact that he could have gone further over to the right, but chose to bisect the space between cyclist and right hand lane boundary, which is almost the norm, and ought to be worked on.

The cyclists generally seem to be treating the road with sort of exuberant attitude that motorists no doubt adopted about 1905. If we see motorists doing that today we justifiably condemn them. Things have become much more organised and roads are not racetracks, but transport systems where vehicles basically follow each other, and that applies to bicycles too.

In this case the road is plainly marked in lanes and vehicles should be using one or the other, not straddling the lane boundary like the lady cyclist, and while overtaking too.

 

[WJHall]

continued....

And even if you take the extreme traditional CTC view that cyclists should not need lights because it is the drivers job to look where he is going, which is an entirely reasonable view, she has overlooked the fact that lights do make you more visible, and that certain lights are legally required, which she does not have.

In general a very poor understanding of road traffic practice and law.

WJH

 

[Origamist]

Quite possible that Londoners have different expectations about personal space from we West Country folk, but now that I have looked at it several times I increasingly see the lady cyclist as the real source of the problem. The driver seems to slow down to almost the speed of the cyclists, and assess the situation before moving forward, I would not be impressed with the distance he leaves but it is not too unusual. I think he can be accused of misjudgement and of not understanding the distance that should be allowed. You will note the fact that he could have gone further over to the right, but chose to bisect the space between cyclist and right hand lane boundary, which is almost the norm, and ought to be worked on.

The cyclists generally seem to be treating the road with sort of exuberant attitude that motorists no doubt adopted about 1905. If we see motorists doing that today we justifiably condemn them. Things have become much more organised and roads are not racetracks, but transport systems where vehicles basically follow each other, and that applies to bicycles too.

In this case the road is plainly marked in lanes and vehicles should be using one or the other, not straddling the lane boundary like the lady cyclist, and while overtaking too.

Well, I agree with parts of what you are saying, but transport systems are not predicated on vehicles simply following one another. Overtaking and to a lesser extent, undertaking is an accepted practice. This does not mean that cyclists should overtake/filter at every conceivable opportunity, but given the high volumes of cyclists in the rush-hour, a narrow 1.5m cycle lane, and considerable variance in cyclist speeds, there is going to be a higher level of proximity to other cyclists and an attendant increase in "blue on blue" incidents.

As for straddling lanes, this can often be justifiable. Vehicles can enter the cycle lane and cyclists have a right to leave the cycle lane in order to pass another cyclist, wet leaves, or for other compelling reasons. Regimented use of narrow cycle lanes is often not condusive with safe riding in my experience, and for that reason, I'll position myself where I deem it safest given the traffic conditions at the time.

 

[WJHall]

Well, I agree with parts of what you are saying, but transport systems are not predicated on vehicles simply following one another. Overtaking and to a lesser extent, undertaking is an accepted practice. This does not mean that cyclists should overtake/filter at every conceivable opportunity, but given the high volumes of cyclists in the rush-hour, a narrow 1.5m cycle lane, and considerable variance in cyclist speeds, there is going to be a higher level of proximity to other cyclists and an attendant increase in "blue on blue" incidents.

As for straddling lanes, this can often be justifiable. Vehicles can enter the cycle lane and cyclists have a right to leave the cycle lane in order to pass another cyclist, wet leaves, or for other compelling reasons. Regimented use of narrow cycle lanes is often not condusive with safe riding in my experience, and for that reason, I'll position myself where I deem it safest given the traffic conditions at the time.

The problem, and why what she did was not safest positioning, which is something that probably did not enter her mind, is that she did not really leave the cycle lane, she straddled the boundary throughout her manoeuvre. Straddling is not the same as crossing it , and if I had been the other cyclist would have been too close to me for my comfort.

Compare the much wider overtake by another cyclist seen earlier in the video, where he also takes advantage of the ASL box and the lights to position himself correctly.Not only is his positioning better, but he chooses the right moment. The whole aim of lanes is to define separate streams of traffic and you should attempt to be in one or the other, making a clean and definite change. That is why even before lane markings became general instruction for drivers included dividing the road mentally into lanes, and not to squeeze through any gap that might appear.

Consider for comparison, overtaking in a car on a motorway and straddling the lane markers on the overtaken vehicle side throughout!

The presence of increasing numbers of other people, even people on bicycles, is an argument for greater care and consideration, not less, but folk do say it be different in London.

Undertaking definitely not allowed, only left filtering.

WJH

 

[Origamist]

The problem, and why what she did was not safest positioning, which is something that probably did not enter her mind, is that she did not really leave the cycle lane, she straddled the boundary throughout her manoeuvre. Straddling is not the same as crossing it , and if I had been the other cyclist would have been too close to me for my comfort.

Compare the much wider overtake by another cyclist seen earlier in the video, where he also takes advantage of the ASL box and the lights to position himself correctly.Not only is his positioning better, but he chooses the right moment. The whole aim of lanes is to define separate streams of traffic and you should attempt to be in one or the other, making a clean and definite change. That is why even before lane markings became general instruction for drivers included dividing the road mentally into lanes, and not to squeeze through any gap that might appear.

Consider for comparison, overtaking in a car on a motorway and straddling the lane markers on the overtaken vehicle side throughout!

The presence of increasing numbers of other people, even people on bicycles, is an argument for greater care and consideration, not less, but folk do say it be different in London.

Undertaking definitely not allowed, only left filtering.

WJH

I don't disagree with your assessment of the riding in the video, but I think you need to be more adaptable about lane positioning in high density traffic situations as conditions are more fluid and traffic engineering can often feel like a rough old compromise / poorly designed experiment. In some circumstances, straddling a lane will feel like the right thing to do - although in the case mentioned above, it's rarely advisable. I generally ride in the cycle lane, or the centre of the traffic lane or the opposing lane on that route.

As for the proximity of the cyclist's overtake, it was too close - it would not bother me, but I suspect quite a few cyclists would expect/appreciate a bit more room - and they have every right too.

Bus lanes are based around undertaking slower or stationary vehicles to your right - I do it every day but it comes with problems.

 

[WJHall]

I don't disagree with your assessment of the riding in the video, but I think you need to be more adaptable about lane positioning in high density traffic situations as conditions are more fluid and traffic engineering can often feel like a rough old compromise / poorly designed experiment. In some circumstances, straddling a lane will feel like the right thing to do - although in the case mentioned above, it's rarely advisable. I generally ride in the cycle lane, or the centre of the traffic lane or the opposing lane on that route.

As for the proximity of the cyclist's overtake, it was too close - it would not bother me, but I suspect quite a few cyclists would expect/appreciate a bit more room - and they have every right too.

Bus lanes are based around undertaking slower or stationary vehicles to your right - I do it every day but it comes with problems.

Indeed, yes, bus lanes....

First we have a traffic system fundamentally based on faster traffic overtaking on the right, then some bright spark comes along and invents bus lanes, putting faster traffic on the left, directly adjacent to the pavement. Also, remembering that cyclists in bus lanes is a fairly general concession not an invariable rule, it can be the cyclists who have very large vehicles whizzing past on the left. (Makes the behaviour of the lady cyclist and drivers seem quite reasonable!)

And by some Pavlovian response to the word 'bus' (green, eco friendly socialist public transport etc....) everyone thinks that this is wonderful, particularly for cyclists. There was a time when it was, but that was in the age, when, in a distinctively British form of planning, councils enthusiastically built bus lanes without actually arranging for any bus services to run in them. Now, with actual buses appearing in bus lanes, being allowed to use them for cycling somehow seems less attractive.

WJH

 

[Origamist]

Indeed, yes, bus lanes....

First we have a traffic system fundamentally based on faster traffic overtaking on the right, then some bright spark comes along and invents bus lanes, putting faster traffic on the left, directly adjacent to the pavement. Also, remembering that cyclists in bus lanes is a fairly general concession not an invariable rule, it can be the cyclists who have very large vehicles whizzing past on the left. (Makes the behaviour of the lady cyclist and drivers seem quite reasonable!)

And by some Pavlovian response to the word 'bus' (green, eco friendly socialist public transport etc....) everyone thinks that this is wonderful, particularly for cyclists. There was a time when it was, but that was in the age, when, in a distinctively British form of planning, councils enthusiastically built bus lanes without actually arranging for any bus services to run in them. Now, with actual buses appearing in bus lanes, being allowed to use them for cycling somehow seems less attractive.

WJH

Bus lanes are indeed a double-edged sword - generally speaking I like them, but I realise that to a large proportion of (particularly) non-cyclists sharing a faster moving lane on the left with buses, taxis and motorbikes is rather short on appeal and hardly a cycling paradise. However, much of the conflicts in bus lanes comes from traffic pulling out and turning into side roads - not from buses themselves (we're back to junctions).

Anyway, it's a shame you do not post here more frequently - WJH.

 

[BentMikey]

From a cyclist point of view, bus lanes are more awesome than an awesome thing, IMO.

 

[clarion]

I love bus lanes. They're the safest part of cycling in the city. Wherever you are on the road, you will be getting the idiots pulling out from the side, cutting across you etc etc. In a bus lane, you can make safe progress through the rest of the traffic with space to see and deal with such annoyances.

 

[jonny jeez]

Anyway, it's a shame you do not post here more frequently - WJH.

Oh, get a room!!

 

[Origamist]

I love bus lanes. They're the safest part of cycling in the city. Wherever you are on the road, you will be getting the idiots pulling out from the side, cutting across you etc etc. In a bus lane, you can make safe progress through the rest of the traffic with space to see and deal with such annoyances.

I agree, most cyclists like them (myself included), but they're rarely continuous, often time limited, often of a critical width for cyclists (3.25m - 4m) and they're increasingly colonized by motorbikes and taxis. What's more, if Addison Lee get their way in the courts, private hire vehicles will also be entitled to use bus lanes in London...

 

[ianrauk]

I agree, most cyclists like them (myself included), but they're rarely continuous, often time limited, often of a critical width for cyclists (3.25m - 4m) and they're increasingly colonized by motorbikes and taxis. What's more, if Addison Lee get their way in the courts, private hire vehicles will also be entitled to use bus lanes in London...

Good God no!!

 

[Jezston]

I agree, most cyclists like them (myself included), but they're rarely continuous, often time limited, often of a critical width for cyclists (3.25m - 4m) and they're increasingly colonized by motorbikes and taxis. What's more, if Addison Lee get their way in the courts, private hire vehicles will also be entitled to use bus lanes in London...

OH DEAR GOD!

I don't live in London but plan to again in the future. Let me know where I can sign to stop this happening!

 

[barongreenback]

[QUOTE 1246034"]
There was a consultation in Birmingham recently, and the sensible outcome was that private hire cars can't use bus lanes. Wahay!
[/quote]

I wish the local police would enforce the bus lanes properly. I'm fed up of getting aggressive drivers zooming past me on Suffolk St Queensway by the theatre down to Holloway circus. People keep chancing it to gain an extra minute rather than sitting in traffic in the tunnel.

 

[Dan B]

[bus lanes are] often time limited

Without prejudice to your other points, I have rarely seen this to be a problem. Most car drivers stay out of bus lanes even outside their hours of operation due to (1) not knowing the hours of operation and (2) "rule 2"[1] which states that one must always drive with right-hand wheels abutting the centre line.

In fairness, if the traffic in the rh lane is moving at any more than about 10mph, it does actually make good sense to stick in it instead of taking the bus lane and getting stuck behind a bus or a parked behicle.



[1] "rule 1", of course, being "overtake the cyclist"