Just been to London...

[hackbike 666]

I think the saddest thing for me is seeing it come from the old days where RLJing didn't exist and we all got by,to the kids nowadays who don't actually know there was life before RLJing began.

What I mean for the younger* generation is they haven't known anything apart from RLJing and everyone (sic) does it so it must be alright.That's what im trying to understand here.

Then again we never had the intranet (shudder) either so I don't know how we all managed.

*=And older who should actually know better.That includes motons and peds.

 

[Dan B]

Whereas they will generally attempt a dangerous overtake to rush up to the next traffic light a cyclist will generally ignore same traffic lights whether it's dangerous or not.Yes I see it all the time.

Whatever cyclists "will generally" do or not (and I don't have the stats to argue it either way), doesn't really change the fact that it is often possible to jump the lights without causing danger and when people in this thread say that's what they do I'm happy to believe them. After all, if they couldn't then they probably can't cope with unlit junctions either ...

 

[hackbike 666]

It can be but are people really clever enough to do it safely?

On the evidence I see out there I think not.

Also why is it ok for cycists to do it whereas motorcycyclists don't do it?

 

[tdr1nka]

Whatever cyclists "will generally" do or not (and I don't have the stats to argue it either way), doesn't really change the fact that it is often possible to jump the lights without causing danger and when people in this thread say that's what they do I'm happy to believe them. After all, if they couldn't then they probably can't cope with unlit junctions either ...

The same could well be said of cars but funnily enough the same law applies.

RLJ'ers have the same overblown sense of their own importance over that of other road users, this is damaging to the view of cyclists in general.

I saw an RLJ-ing cyclist yesterday that very nearly took a motorbike out.
The cyclist couldn't have failed to miss the torrent of verbal abuse the motorcyclist gave him but still cycled off as if nothing had happened.

This is exactly the snobbish/elitist/self important attitude that makes pedestrians hate us and motons to want to run us over.

When it comes to road law in this country cyclists and motorists have both seriously got to stop bending or breaking rules to suit their needs.

 

[Bollo]

The whole argument about RLJing whiffs of the safespeed argument about speeding.

There are certainly places where a highly trained and experienced driver can break the speed limit without putting anyone in danger. The trouble is that people's own view of their abilities usually far outweighs their actual abilities. There's that test where you ask a group of people whether they're an above-average or below average driver when compared against the rest of the selected group. The majority (particularly if the group is all male) will answer that they are above average. But they can't be. There will be as many below average as above average.

The same is true of RLJing. For every rider that may actually be capable of jumping safely, there are plenty that believe they can, but can't.

The rules are there to provide a consistent framework for people to interact on the road, so that even those of below average ability can enjoy a relatively safe journey. By having people on the road that are following different and conflicting frameworks (I expect you to stop at a light, but you expect to carry on), there are sure to be accidents. Hypothetically, if you changed the law to allow cyclists to jump reds, I think it would be safer as motorists and pedestrians would understand that this might happen and act accordingly. The reason that shared-space approaches appear to work is that everyone is playing by the same rules - in this case that space must be negotiated.

(Steps off soapbox)

 

[hackbike 666]

The strangest thing I ever found was being able to ride on the pavements in Japan.

The whole argument about RLJing whiffs of the safespeed argument about speeding.

Perhaps it's because I grew up when it wasn't done.Im sure the driving was different as well and no I don't like speeding either.

 

[swee'pea99]

"It can be but are people really clever enough to do it safely?

On the evidence I see out there I think not."

On the evidence I see out there (while riding 75 miles a week, year round, into and out of the centre of London) I think so.

There are of course exceptions. There are of course idiots, scumbags and selfish nitwits who RLJ stupidly and worse. But considering the extent of RLJing in London, the fact that I haven't seen one accident or collision caused by it in five years must surely say something about whether on the whole 'people are really clever enough to do it safely'.

 

[Dan B]

The same is true of RLJing. For every rider that may actually be capable of jumping safely, there are plenty that believe they can, but can't.

I wonder if we are talking about different things. I am certainly not trying to defend jumping the lights into the path of traffic, but moving off at a junction when the lights are still red but there is nobody else waiting or approaching who is going to be impacted by it - how does that require any special skill? We do it all the time at junctions without lights and apparently without carnage

 

[tdr1nka]

The problem with that argument is that it doesn't factor in any braking or evasive maneuvers anyone else might have to do to avoid hitting them.

Again this is more of a courtesy issue than one of implicit safety.

 

[Dan B]

The problem with that argument is that it doesn't factor in any braking or evasive maneuvers anyone else might have to do to avoid hitting them.

I am certainly not trying to defend jumping the lights into the path of traffic

If anyone is doing any braking or evasive maneuvers to avoid hitting an RLJing cyclist, then it is exactly the kind of RLJ I just said I would not defend

 

[hackbike 666]

That's the worrying thing when I see the RLJing at Ped lights.It looks well dodgy to me.As you say some people can do it considerately which must put at least 90% of Londoners out.

 

[thomas]

If anyone is doing any braking or evasive maneuvers to avoid hitting an RLJing cyclist, then it is exactly the kind of RLJ I just said I would not defend

I'd agree with that. If you go past a red light on an a crossing when everyone has gone there isn't really a safety issue (and I have seen motorists do this...mainly really late at night/really early in the morning when there isn't much chance of being seen or caught).

I can understand that kind of RLJing more in London, around me there's not that much point as I can just speed up/slow down to avoid the lights or just stop for a couple of minute on every ride and have a drink and catch my breath.

In Norwich there are traffic lights on the way into town which really annoy me. They're on roundabouts and I could quite safely go when there's nothing on the right. I do wait for the lights to change as it really doesn't take that long...but I wish they weren't there!

 

[Dan B]

That's the worrying thing when I see the RLJing at Ped lights.It looks well dodgy to me.

Yes, a lot of it probably is. Making pedestrians panic is not my idea of a fun or a socially acceptable time

 

[hackbike 666]

Also thing here is the traffic light timings are not thought out in some places.I suppose as a use for traffic "calming".

 

[skrx]

The same is true of RLJing. For every rider that may actually be capable of jumping safely, there are plenty that believe they can, but can't.

I jump red lights on some junctions when there's no one around. That's the same as a junction without lights.

I jump red lights at pedestrian crossings when there's no one on the crossing. That's the same as a zebra crossing.

A lot of London cyclists do the same.

I don't see how this is the same as thinking you can drive fast.