Language learning

[yello]

But what makes you think the lessons were poor preparation?

What makes you think I think that?

On the contrary, without lessons I wouldn't have had the basics to work out how the language was being used.

 

[Tail End Charlie]

I remember being in Italy with a pal and his wife, none of us had any Italian, so we each learned a couple of phrases which we thought might be useful.
One day we were a bit lost and were driving down a dirt track (turns out we were in some kind of nature reserve, no idea how we managed that) and we were stopped by two very gruff looking policemen. It was decided I had the most useful phrase in the circs, so I stuck my head out of the window and asked "where are the good beaches?". The two policemen burst out laughing fortunately.

 

[bitsandbobs]

I learned a second language, but it took me a very long time. One thing I found difficult to overcome was a feeling of self-consciousness in speaking (social dis-ease as Kate Fox would have it) which didn't help.

A friend one told me of two groups he'd taught English to. The first was Italian. He couldn't stop them talking and they progressed quickly. The other group was Japanese who wouldn't say anything unless completely sure it was correct and consequently made painfully slow progress.

 

[nickyboy]

I mentioned upthread about my dabbling my toes in the German language. Reading some of the posts about people learning Chinese has got me thinking. I've always found the thought of it too daunting, with no sort of "anchor point" of recognising speech patterns and sounds that you get when learning a language such as German/ French / Spanish etc.
Our daughter in law is Chinese, originally from Harbin. It would be nice to learn a little bit of her language so could anyone recommend a suitably gentle, easy to follow method?
TIA

I'll tell you what I did. However, this was some time ago so technology has moved on
Firstly, bear in mind that not only does Chinese have characters, it has "Pinyin" which is the word in Roman style. So "hello" is "ni hao" in Pinyin. This makes remembering the words hugely easier
I bought some Pimsleur CDs and just listened to them. And I bought a Chinese English dictionary. Very quickly you can spot patterns and this makes learning vocab much easier. For example the "ni hao" for hello is actually the words "ni" for "you" and "hao" for "good". So you get three words for the price of one.
I tried podcasts which were good too. But you have an amazing opportunity with a native speaking family member. I was travelling to China a lot so I could practice. Most can't. You can, and I guarantee she will be delighted at your efforts

Don't bother with characters. For polite phrases with your DiL just learn them, memorise the Pinyin (this is mega important...otherwise they are just noises) and try them out on her. Don't worry about the tones at all. She will understand you though context, even when you get the tone wrong (which westerners inevitably do)

 

[yello]

Following on from above, I've been told (and maybe @gavroche can comment) that French students learning English (in French schools) are technically very competent. They know and understand English grammar perhaps better than native English speakers do (generally speaking, you don't learn advanced grammar, I.e. beyond nouns and verbs, in UK schools). The problem French students face is in actually speaking English, and consequently they can lack confidence.

My own belief is that you have to be prepared to make mistakes (and lots of them!) to learn a language. You need to be prepared to face embarrassment and even humiliation (nothing too severe though, fortunately) That means using the language and often going outside of your comfort zone.

For most people that is quite a difficult step to take and they are understandably shy and reticent. For me personally, language learning embraces 3 of the things I like least; hard work, acceptance that you'll make mistakes and potentially being laughed 'at'. For people like me, you have to get over all of that before you can learn! No small task and so it's no wonder not all of us are natural language learners.

 

[Tenkaykev]

with my German learning I tried several of the Apps before settling on "Memrise". It's handy to have on my phone so if I'm on the bus I can do a quick exercise. It has embedded videos of native speakers saying the phrase or word that they are teaching which I found quite useful as there are a variety of accents and speed of speech.
I also got a few books from Andre Klein " Dino lernt Deutsch " which follows the adventures of Dino, a Sicilian who travels to Germany to find work. It starts with "Cafe in Berlin" and in each book he visits a different city as his language learning improves ( hopefully along with yours ) Very well laid out and the accompanying audio is clear and precise.

 

[oldworld]

I've lived in France since 2003 and my skill in French is absolutely rubbish.
I can follow what is being said, unless the speaker has a very regional accent or has a machine gun delivery.
My accent is poor, although I try hard, and it takes me time to formulate my replies.
All this is made worse by having to wear masks.
One observation in my time here is the French don't have the gift that Brits do in being able to hear someone mangle their language but still understand.
It could be the shear numbers of people from overseas seen in the UK everyday that makes the difference.

 

[matticus]

One observation in my time here is the French don't have the gift that Brits do in being able to hear someone mangle their language but still understand.
It could be the shear numbers of people from overseas seen in the UK everyday that makes the difference.

I assumed this was just another example of Parisian rudeness!
But then down in the Pyrenees area, I was catching a train to Lourdes. I could not believe that my fellow passengers would not understand the word "Lourdes". We ended up speaking in english, and they understood me very well ... except for this bloody place-name! There were only 8 stops on the line - and although I'm sure I wasn't pitch-perfect, how on earth could they not work me out?? I even tried all possible variations (my french pronunciation is generally pretty good - a lot better than my vocab, and my aural comprehension ...

 

[nickyboy]

Following on from above, I've been told (and maybe @gavroche can comment) that French students learning English (in French schools) are technically very competent. They know and understand English grammar perhaps better than native English speakers do (generally speaking, you don't learn advanced grammar, I.e. beyond nouns and verbs, in UK schools). The problem French students face is in actually speaking English, and consequently they can lack confidence.

My own belief is that you have to be prepared to make mistakes (and lots of them!) to learn a language. You need to be prepared to face embarrassment and even humiliation (nothing too severe though, fortunately) That means using the language and often going outside of your comfort zone.

For most people that is quite a difficult step to take and they are understandably shy and reticent. For me personally, language learning embraces 3 of the things I like least; hard work, acceptance that you'll make mistakes and potentially being laughed 'at'. For people like me, you have to get over all of that before you can learn! No small task and so it's no wonder not all of us are natural language learners.

It isn't always comfortable but you're right, just throw yourself in and have a go. Regarding Chinese, I would get a taxi from the airport to the hotel. Taxi driver of course assumes I don't speak a word so he says nothing. So I would start trying to chat to him about mundane, simple topics like the weather, football etc etc. For sure there were plenty of uncomfortable silences when I didn't understand him or I'd run out of things to talk about. But, blimey, it was a really efficient way to learn the real way people speak. When I got tot the hotel often the staff would speak English. But I'd learned the phrases for checking in, changing money etc etc so I would use these. Stressing yourself in these situations to communicate seems to aid the learning process

It seems to be a mindset. I'm always willing to give it a go and I feel embarrassed on holiday to only speak English in Croatia or Portugal or wherever so I give it my best shot with some phrases. My wife and younger son somehow "forget" to speak the local language and always speak English (of course the service staff speak English). Interestingly my elder son, who has a learning disability, always has a go in the local language and is really good at remembering the phrases

 

[matticus]

My own belief is that you have to be prepared to make mistakes (and lots of them!) to learn a language. You need to be prepared to face embarrassment and even humiliation (nothing too severe though, fortunately) That means using the language and often going outside of your comfort zone.

Totally agree. I've got quite a good brain for written languages (seems to be allied with maths/logic/puzzles?), but I hated French at school initially.
Then on our school exchange trip I was stuck in the family's spare bedroom one evening, and realised I had to make the effort and just go for it!

When we later started German and Latin, I was happy to get stuck in.

 

[cookiemonster]

It isn't always comfortable but you're right, just throw yourself in and have a go. Regarding Chinese, I would get a taxi from the airport to the hotel. Taxi driver of course assumes I don't speak a word so he says nothing. So I would start trying to chat to him about mundane, simple topics like the weather, football etc etc. For sure there were plenty of uncomfortable silences when I didn't understand him or I'd run out of things to talk about. But, blimey, it was a really efficient way to learn the real way people speak. When I got tot the hotel often the staff would speak English. But I'd learned the phrases for checking in, changing money etc etc so I would use these. Stressing yourself in these situations to communicate seems to aid the learning process

It seems to be a mindset. I'm always willing to give it a go and I feel embarrassed on holiday to only speak English in Croatia or Portugal or wherever so I give it my best shot with some phrases. My wife and younger son somehow "forget" to speak the local language and always speak English (of course the service staff speak English). Interestingly my elder son, who has a learning disability, always has a go in the local language and is really good at remembering the phrases

I've learned more Cantonese from HK cab drivers than anyone else.

 

[cookiemonster]

Following on from above, I've been told (and maybe @gavroche can comment) that French students learning English (in French schools) are technically very competent. They know and understand English grammar perhaps better than native English speakers do (generally speaking, you don't learn advanced grammar, I.e. beyond nouns and verbs, in UK schools). The problem French students face is in actually speaking English, and consequently they can lack confidence.

My own belief is that you have to be prepared to make mistakes (and lots of them!) to learn a language. You need to be prepared to face embarrassment and even humiliation (nothing too severe though, fortunately) That means using the language and often going outside of your comfort zone.

For most people that is quite a difficult step to take and they are understandably shy and reticent. For me personally, language learning embraces 3 of the things I like least; hard work, acceptance that you'll make mistakes and potentially being laughed 'at'. For people like me, you have to get over all of that before you can learn! No small task and so it's no wonder not all of us are natural language learners.

Very true and that's what I tell the kids I teach. At that age, 6/7 years old, they've no problems making a mistake as long as you don't use the word 'no.' That simple word is destructive to a youngster's confidence.

If you're not making mistakes, you're not learning that language.

 

[nickyboy]

I've learned more Cantonese from HK cab drivers than anyone else.

And that'll be the real Cantonese such as when the driver gets cut up at an intersection. I dread to think

 

[yello]

Yup, you do kinda have to take opportunities to practice on people; cab drivers and the like. It does feel a little like using them (particularly for someone like me who is, by nature, not the most talkative/social!) but it does pay off. Not just in terms of practice and learning, but also in terms of taking the tension out of a situation. Which is actually something else to keep in mind; speaking a foreign language is not just about you.

When you speak to a native speaker, they are instantly aware that you are not a native speaker. No matter how good you might be, your accent and stress patterns can give you away. This, in itself, introduces uncertainty and someone listening to you can become aware/stressed at the possibility of miscommunication. They actually start listening for mistakes (not consciously) in a kind of self fulfilling prophecy way. Those very same mistakes could be glossed over/auto corrected by them if they didn't have this perception of you. That, in turn, can cause you self doubt - you begin to doubt you're own ability.

These days, when I am misunderstood (and it is a matter of when not if), I repeat myself. I don't get anxious and attempt to rephrase. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but the point is not to assume you've gotten it 'wrong'

My French is pretty crap in truth but I speak it naturally, without anxiety, and it gives the impression that I'm pretty good at it. In fact, other non-French speakers think I'm fluent. I'm far from that but I can chat. Remember, most of understanding doesn't come from the words. Trust yourself to understand and trust in your own abilities, at whatever level they are.

 

[gavroche]

Following on from above, I've been told (and maybe @gavroche can comment) that French students learning English (in French schools) are technically very competent. They know and understand English grammar perhaps better than native English speakers do (generally speaking, you don't learn advanced grammar, I.e. beyond nouns and verbs, in UK schools). The problem French students face is in actually speaking English, and consequently they can lack confidence.

My own belief is that you have to be prepared to make mistakes (and lots of them!) to learn a language. You need to be prepared to face embarrassment and even humiliation (nothing too severe though, fortunately) That means using the language and often going outside of your comfort zone.

For most people that is quite a difficult step to take and they are understandably shy and reticent. For me personally, language learning embraces 3 of the things I like least; hard work, acceptance that you'll make mistakes and potentially being laughed 'at'. For people like me, you have to get over all of that before you can learn! No small task and so it's no wonder not all of us are natural language learners.

I can only speak from when I was in school in the 60s as I don't know how it is now but then, we were taught grammar extensively as French grammar is quite complicated. Personally, I was rubbish in English at school, until I went on a school exchange in England and met an English girl I fell in love with, which changed my attitude to learning English drastically, but that's another story.