London-Edinburgh-London 2013: The thread

[yello]

Maybe... but I'm sure as the date looms closer that'll become a yes.

I rode it for the first time last year and learnt a great deal. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but knowing what I know now I would have made some decisions differently.

I used a Shimano hub dynamo and a B&M Cyo. I didn't notice any hub drag but then I always ride with a dynohub so I could just be used to it. Can't say I've ever really noticed it though to be honest, not from day 1. Rear lights were common or garden leds; cateye something-or-other and one of the 1/2 watt jobbies. I carried spare batteries but didn't need them.

I also used an Edge 305 with a gomadic external power source velcroed to the top tube. Worked perfectly. The Edge's limited storage meant that tracking it overwrote the details of the first dozen legs but it didn't skip a beat for route following. I knew of the storage limitation and I wasn't bothered. I could have taken a laptop and downloaded it - but that would have been just a bit daft imo. Besides, I knew the ride summary (total distance, elapsed time) would be maintained and that was the main thing.

For training purposes, I would recommend people get into the habit of riding on consecutive days - if you can. I'm not talking 600s, or even 400s, but certainly 100s and maybe even 200s. LEL can be tackled as 4 consecutive 350s, more-or-less, but there are obviously other ways.

But it's some time away yet. I'm focused on the 600 Bordeaux-Paris this year (plus a 400 PBP qualifier) and then maybe PBP next year.

 

[Arch]

Ok, new names added. Yello, do you want adding to the map too, as a maybe?

 

[Greenbank]

My 2p on the lights - SON eber alles.

Logically - I get that it is possible to use battries etc. - but for me this lighting solution is best if only because of one element - I don't need to WORRY or REMEMBER - it just works (and I also have the 'sensor' lighting, so I don't even turn the thing on or off - how cool is that!

The only thing to remember is that 'it just works' up until it stops. I think Mr Vorsprung has had a SON hub stop working in the middle of a 600km Audax.

If you don't have a backup you could be forced to DNF. I always carry a B&M Ixon as a backup, even if I'm using my SON + Solidlights.

The drag may not be noticable but it's there. A typical front light will be taking up to 6W. With the various inefficiencies (lamp, dynohub) you're looking at 'losing' about 10W. Haven't got my PowerTap wheel yet but others who've used one for Audaxing generally shows that Audax pootling pace is 160W. 10W on top of that isn't insignificant.

 

[vorsprung]

The only thing to remember is that 'it just works' up until it stops. I think Mr Vorsprung has had a SON hub stop working in the middle of a 600km Audax.

GB is thinking of the k&sw 600 in 2009. My SON powered Cyo conked out at the start of the night stage. I had a tescos AA LED torch and a headtorch as backup. The night stage is the A39 Atlantic highway, which is an excellent road so it wasn't a problem.

I had a bulb go during LEL 2005 before York. So I did part of night #1 with the backup light. When I changed the bulb the next day I didn't tighten up the bolt holding the lamp on properly. So it fell off and was held on with tape until Edinburgh where the nice mechanic woman fixed it. There are some descents that are a bit scarey with a 1W LED light.

During the wettest ever ride, the Highs and Loos 200km, I was riding with my mate Andy. Andy's light fell off the bracket on his bike and broke into a million pieces. So I gave him my backup light. Later, the extreme wetness made my old SON powered axa-basta light work intermitantly. When I tried poking it I got a shock off the generator.

But the best light failure was in 2008.

I broke my collar bone in Feb, and had missed all the early season events. I had done a 200/300/600 successfully and just needed a 400 to get an SR. This wasn't possible in July, there was too much rain and wind.

At the end of august 2008 the weather cleared up and there was a small group doing a perm version of the k&sw 600. So I set off to up meet up with them the night before. First 100 metres my SON powered light failed. Second 100 metres my Dinotte failed. I briefly considered riding 600k with just a 1 AA headtorch and then went home. I didn't get an SR that year. Previous to this the Dinotte and the SON had always been very reliable.

 

[Tynan]

are people really still arguing that the light from a dynamo is free?

 

[PalmerSperry]

are people really still arguing that the light from a dynamo is free?

Well I didn't notice any money flowing out of my pocket when my SON powered light came on in a tunnel this morning! Or are we meaning in terms of added drag? I doubt I could really notice the 1 foot extra per mile (when the lights off) or the 5 feet extra per mile (when it's on). (And those figures are, IIRC, for a SON28 with a halogen light, not a SON20R with an LED?)

 

[Tynan]

10W in 170W by Greenbank's figures, sounds a lot more than 5 feet per mile

 

[Arch]

are people really still arguing that the light from a dynamo is free?

Do you work for the National Battery Council?

 

[Tynan]

nah, just asking a very fundamental question about hub dynamoes and get two very different answers, I might well ask the hub afficianados much the same question, the idea of a very bright light being fuelled without apparent effort is an odd one to me

I have to say that I find greenbank's post awfully to the point and plausible

 

[PalmerSperry]

10W in 170W by Greenbank's figures, sounds a lot more than 5 feet per mile

Where's the 10W figure coming from though? The figures (scroll down quite a bit) tfrom the people selling the things don't show them producing more than about 7Ws of drag even at 30kmh. And I, personally, don't consider 30kmh to be audax "pootling along" pace! (Between 10kmh and 20kmh, the SON is producing between 3 and 5.5W of drag).)

 

[Greenbank]

Where's the 10W figure coming from though? The figures (scroll down quite a bit) tfrom the people selling the things don't show them producing more than about 7Ws of drag even at 30kmh. And I, personally, don't consider 30kmh to be audax "pootling along" pace! (Between 10kmh and 20kmh, the SON is producing between 3 and 5.5W of drag).)

Those are the figures of the latest and greatest SON. At 30kph it's taking more than 7W to power a 3W light. It's the inefficiency of converting mechanical energy to electrical energy and then into light. Other dynohubs are taking 9W at that speed to do the same, sidewall dynamos over 10W. Close enough for me.

And 30kph on the flat is generally Audax "pootling" pace. It's what I do on the flat and I generally end up near the back of the field on a ride. According to the bicycle speed and power calculator (thanks to the Web Archive) http://web.archive.org/web/20071212072421/http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

160W of power on the drops on the flat with no wind is ~30kph (depending on individual figures). Someone I usually ride with has a PowerTap hub and averages about 160W over an Audax. More than 50% of a ride (time wise) I'm doing more than 25kph. It's the other 50% of time that slows it all down; the average is brought down by hills and wind.

My moving averages tend to be; 25kph for a relatively flat Audax, 23kph for in between and I've dropped right down to 20kph moving average for a hilly Audax). Add in leisurely stops and you're soon bouncing near the closing times of the controls.

5ft per mile doesn't sound much, but over the distance of LEL it's an extra 1350m of climbing (LEL 2009 had about 9,000m of climbing). Of course you won't have your lights on all of the time, unless it's torrential rain and you need to. So just imagine an extra Yad Moss (600m above sea level) or two on the route.

You may not be able to feel it but that doesn't mean it's free. 5ft per mile does't sound much until you work out how much it is over a long ride.

 

[PalmerSperry]

And 30kph on the flat is generally Audax "pootling" pace. It's what I do on the flat and I generally end up near the back of the field on a ride.

Hmm, that explains why I always end up as the Lanterne Rouge then! Unless it's downhill or the inside the first 50km then I'm not going to be exceeding 25kmh! And I only knock on the door of / exceed 30kmh downhill.

You may not be able to feel it but that doesn't mean it's free. 5ft per mile does't sound much until you work out how much it is over a long ride.

I've never claimed it was free anyway! I think the "fit and (almost) forget" aspect is the big win ... (How much extra weight would enough AAs, or whatever, to power an Edelux equivalent light for an entire LEL amount to anyway? )

 

[Greenbank]

I've never claimed it was free anyway! I think the "fit and (almost) forget" aspect is the big win ... (How much extra weight would enough AAs, or whatever, to power an Edelux equivalent light for an entire LEL amount to anyway? )

Less than the weight penalty of a SON hub (compared to a normal hub).

(I did LEL with 3 sets of Lithium batteries in my B&M Ixon lights).

If I'd needed any more batteries (i.e. I'd had to dip into my 3rd set on anything but the last night) I'd just stop at a shop or petrol station and buy some.

Fit and forget is definitely nice. I'm back to using my SON + Solidlights 1203D for commuting and evening rides around Richmond Park.

 

[mcshroom]

Hmm, 3 years to train, just after my 30th birthday, mad long ride. Er can I join in please

May need to get a bit of practice in though! I've only been back in the saddle 4 months and my longest ride so far is 60 miles.

It sounds like a great ride, I'm just not sure I'll be capable atm.

 

[arallsopp]

60 miles with 3 years to go? You're well ahead of the curve mate. Plenty of time to chase this (and others).