More than 32,000 people have died on British roads in the past 10 years

[Cab]

He wants 20mph limits to be applied everywhere

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

 

[marinyork]

He wants 20mph limits to be applied everywhere to safeguard vulnerable users.

Why not speak to some people actually involved in 20 campaigns. Unfortunately main roads are often excluded.

The "everywhere" is rather like speed cameras where people rabbit on about them endlessly and they are on what 1 or 2% of roads even measured in a very generous sense of just counting a road with a camera on it.

The bridle path comparison I don't see. Many of the "must have" 20 stretches on people's wish lists are crawling with peds, sometimes very inebriated ones.

 

[StuartG]

... Do you think the study into the possible effects of a 20mph speed limit was as equally scientific? I do hope so.

Ahem, the 20mph report was a serious statistical study. Science is about laws of nature. Big difference.

You didn't bother to read/understand the new report did you? No wonder you have come up with a load of arguments irrelevant to the discussion topic. You don't want 20mph zones and you are just wasting the thread with irrelevant opinions on random topics. Please go away until you have something relevant to add.

 

[StuartG]

BTW this is the published study as a PDF: http://www.bmj.com/cgi/reprint/339/dec10_3/b4469

 

[marinyork]

Ahem, the 20mph report was a serious statistical study. Science is about laws of nature. Big difference.

You didn't bother to read/understand the new report did you? No wonder you have come up with a load of arguments irrelevant to the discussion topic. You don't want 20mph zones and you are just wasting the thread with irrelevant opinions on random topics. Please go away until you have something relevant to add.

I'm glad you brought this up. So in the favour of 20mph zones we have (a) laws of nature in the form of Lagrangians/Newtons Laws etc ( a study that finds just what we'd expect. And people still argue about it.

 

[StuartG]

I'm glad you brought this up. So in the favour of 20mph zones we have (a) laws of nature in the form of Lagrangians/Newtons Laws etc ( a study that finds just what we'd expect. And people still argue about it.

Nope. Lagrangians/Newtons Laws you are inferring they studied the dynamics of a collision. That's science. They didn't consider the nature of any accident. Just the reported incident and its location. That's statistics.

The study also claims it is the first to show a statistical connection. It would be premature to go the whole hog on a 20mph zoning till we know much more. Repeating it in other cities would remove a number of London specific factors. Studying the actual collisions in more detail at a physical level could inform us why kids benefit proportionately more than adults.

Finally I got little feel from the study in variation between zones. One would presume some 20mph zones have a dramatic effect and others much less or none. Teasing this out might point to an implementation plan that delivers maximum benefit at minimum cost and annoyance.

 

[marinyork]

Nope. Lagrangians/Newtons Laws you are inferring they studied the dynamics of a collision. That's science. They didn't consider the nature of any accident. Just the reported incident and its location. That's statistics.

Not sure what you're getting at and I'm aware of the difference between the two. You have one lot of evidence and another lot that is different.

The study also claims it is the first to show a statistical connection. It would be premature to go the whole hog on a 20mph zoning till we know much more. Repeating it in other cities would remove a number of London specific factors. Studying the actual collisions in more detail at a physical level could inform us why kids benefit proportionately more than adults.

Er, lab tested stuff has gone very much along these lines. It'd be very nice to get more information on a lot of accidents.

Finally I got little feel from the study in variation between zones. One would presume some 20mph zones have a dramatic effect and others much less or none. Teasing this out might point to an implementation plan that delivers maximum benefit at minimum cost and annoyance.

That seems uninformed to me. 20 zones are generally cheaper to do the larger you make them. It's normally the super targeted ones that cost a fortune with interventions.

 

[StuartG]

The study was of 20mph zones. That's just a signposted speed restriction. It implied enforcement was nearly always passive (humps, chicanes .. ). So what is making the difference in dropping speed by 9mph and KSI by 20/30%?

The signs? The calming? Or both? Or the type of calming? ...

The study is surely only a first cut. We are doing something right with 20mph zones. In itself it doesn't tell us what. Or that it would necessarily be repeated outside London. Its a beginning.

 

[marinyork]

The study was of 20mph zones. That's just a signposted speed restriction. It implied enforcement was nearly always passive (humps, chicanes .. ). So what is making the difference in dropping speed by 9mph and KSI by 20/30%?

The signs? The calming? Or both? Or the type of calming? ...

The study is surely only a first cut. We are doing something right with 20mph zones. In itself it doesn't tell us what. Or that it would necessarily be repeated outside London.

There are various speculations about 20mph zones. One is that you'd get about a 1mph average reduction in speed even if you just put the signs up.

If you do targeted it costs a lot more because you have to put up more signs and more interventions. For example on current budgets it would take 50 years to complete where I live doing it in micro areas. This is totally laughable on one sense because in that time a lot of the child ped testing stuff going on will have filtered through and hopefully saved quite a few lives.

Of course reports are early days, serious efforts for 20mph zones are still early days.

 

[StuartG]

MarinYork: I don't think we are too far apart. The initial enthusiasm for 20mph zones appears to have evaporated of late. Maybe because no one was sure they were doing any good. The study should, at least, re-ignite the enthusiasm. Maybe not in every part of Gloucestershire ...

But as you say rolling them out to significant parts of the city looks to take time and money we haven't got. The cost is currently installing calming. Do we need it all? Enforcement by other means may be the solution. Random radar traps with high penalties might be one way. Perhaps adding a bit of community service (give the sinners the radar guns to catch the next quota might be fun). You can then declare new zones quickly with minimal cost. Or do we target schools & wide roads or just make 20mph the standard and just sign 30mph and above?

Interesting times. The more serious point may be how do we stop this story being a one week wonder?

 

[jeltz]

Many of these accidents happen because people are speeding, why would someone be more inclined to keep to 20 if the already ignore 30 or 40?

 

[marinyork]

MarinYork: I don't think we are too far apart. The initial enthusiasm for 20mph zones appears to have evaporated of late. Maybe because no one was sure they were doing any good. The study should, at least, re-ignite the enthusiasm. Maybe not in every part of Gloucestershire ...

There's a lot of work going on. There's a problem when things do work they make no headlines. For example a notorious road near me had a speed limit reduction and enforcement by average speed cameras and the KSIs went into freefall. Such stories either the deaths before or the drop is just not interesting to anybody.

But as you say rolling them out to significant parts of the city looks to take time and money we haven't got. The cost is currently installing calming. Do we need it all? Enforcement by other means may be the solution. Random radar traps with high penalties might be one way. Perhaps adding a bit of community service (give the sinners the radar guns to catch the next quota might be fun). You can then declare new zones quickly with minimal cost. Or do we target schools & wide roads or just make 20mph the standard and just sign 30mph and above?

Traffic planners I've listened to are in agreement that probably fewer (but not zero) interventions are needed. The police are fairly against 20 zones round here. I don't like targetting schools with 20 zones because it seems to reinforce poor behaviour by motorists - they associate 20 zones with short periods of time in a day and schools have their own problems. My authority is trying to pioneer parking enforcement for schools. There is an argument that not being able to sign 30 is a good reason to have 20 as the default. Of course one can sign post 30 in a 30 if you have a speed camera installed, it just depends how important it is in that area.

In some areas with 20 zones and 30 zones nearby they are keen on the flashing signs. I think this is just a cheap trick to get a bit of an improvement in behaviour for a tiny sum of money and not offend too many people.

Interesting times. The more serious point may be how do we stop this story being a one week wonder?

I'm sure it will be mentioned in future. I think tv is a bit more keen about covering this sort of thing in culture and current affairs light weight programming.

 

[StuartG]

In some areas with 20 zones and 30 zones nearby they are keen on the flashing signs. I think this is just a cheap trick to get a bit of an improvement in behaviour for a tiny sum of money and not offend too many people.

I like them, that's because I take notice. That's the rub - I wonder if they have maximum effect on the margin of people who do a few mph above the limit and shame themselves into slowing a little. Whereas the boy racer sees them as a marker to beat.

Any research you know of?

 

[marinyork]

I like them, that's because I take notice. That's the rub - I wonder if they have maximum effect on the margin of people who do a few mph above the limit and shame themselves into slowing a little. Whereas the boy racer sees them as a marker to beat.

Any research you know of?

Not that I know of and I think they tend to be in quite small numbers. You'd need a nationwide or London study. When I lived in York (a county that doesn't believe in speed cameras) they bought 11 flashing signs. They cost between £2000 and £11,000 each I think. I'm not against them but they seem to be deployed without other interventions, other enforcement or other ideas. There's one up here in a 40 area and I'm not sure how that worked as the police used to patrol it regularly and I haven't seen them doing so for some considerable time now. I can't say I've lit one up as although I go past it all the time on the bike, and less often in the car I drive substantially below the speed limit on that stretch as I don't think it a particularly good idea to do so at the posted limit.

 

[very-near]

No.

You're arguing against implementing a measure which we know will result in fewer deaths on the roads, by banging on about a time when you irresponsibly put your child at risk by allowing her out riding where you knew cyclists were allowed to be and that the horse didn't like bikes.

Your going to have to make the link for me. Because there isn't one.

That would be any road in the UK wouldn't it

Are you suggesting that horses shouldn't be allowed on the public highway in case an inconsiderate cyclist comes the other way baring his teeth and puffing and blowing like a steam train ?. I've yet to see a horse which wouldn't have a problem with this.

You aren't very tolerant of others - but I kind of know this already so nothing new on your part.

The animal doesn't have a problem with the way I move around it whether I am on a cycle or not and that is because I took the time to figure out how to behave.
I take it you wouldn't want to be accused of being selfish and ignorant when it comes to dealing with those more vulnerable than yourself on the road. Perhaps a bit of education would help you to understand how to behave around horses on the road. There is plenty of sound information for you to digest, and given you tell everyone who will listen how important road safety is to you, will take it on board and be a better road user for it.

http://www.horseawareness.co.uk/rdrule.htm