Most dangerous commute this morning in a long time

[bryce]

Bryce, you should read Cyclecraft - then you will know what we are talking about. As it stands, you are criticising something you do not fully understand - hardly unheard of on a forum, but it means people won't take your well meaning advice seriously.

Thanks but I'm reading the Bible at the moment so I can debate religion in P&L . I'm pretty sure I understand what 'primary' and 'secondary' mean in the context although granted I have not read Cyclecraft. I'm not sure many drivers have either.

As I said - each to their own but IMO (and not advising/ proselytising) the binary labelling of (and adherence to) two static road positions just seems counter-intuitive, especially in an urban setting.

 

[Origamist]

Thanks but I'm reading the Bible at the moment so I can debate religion in P&L . I'm pretty sure I understand what 'primary' and 'secondary' mean in the context although granted I have not read Cyclecraft. I'm not sure many drivers have either.

As I said - each to their own but IMO (and not advising/ proselytising) the binary labelling of (and adherence to) two static road positions just seems counter-intuitive, especially in an urban setting.

Bryce, that's not what Cyclecraft recommends or teaches. It's not as reductive or as prescriptive as that. You would benefit from reading the book.

 

[garrilla]

Not sure I'm explaining myself well. By all means obviously cycle in a safe position - I'm not advocating cycling in the gutter or clipping parked wing-mirrors but IMO you can be perfectly in control and assertive by cycling in a fluid, safe position whilst giving respect to other road users without having to adopt either 'secondary' or 'primary'. Each to their own I guess, but I've never heard 'primary' / 'secondary' mentioned anywhere but on a few cycling forums. Never in a pub/ cycling club/ race etc. Just seems nonsensical and a recipe for unnecessary danger.

What you describe is secondary position - ie passing motor vehicles have primary position, the cyclist has secondary position.

Occasionally though, safety requires a cyclist to adopt the primary position which prevents motorists from passing.

So we can sum it up as secondary is simply the 'good road ettiquete' position while Primary is the 'good for high safety' position. Or better still, 'let them pass' or 'let them wait'.

 

[ttcycle]

Bryce

Primary and secondary road positioning are not two static positions- it's not a case of black and white - it's not prescriptive in that you have to cycle ie 1.5 metres from the curb in x scenarios or 1 metre in y scenario and does allow for fluidity and most of all safety but importantly, it is wise for anyone using the theoretical information to assess road conditions and hazards to be able to apply theory to practice

 

[BentMikey]

Let's ask Bryce another way:

Bryce, where in the lane would you cycle through an average junction?
What about through a pinch point, say where there is a pedestrian island?
What about along a longer stretch of wide road where there is plenty of room for motor vehicles to overtake?
What about a longer stretch of narrow road, where a motor vehicle can't overtake you without using the oncoming lane?

 

[rh100]

Glad you two are OK......I'm glad my commute is only in city suburbs.

The primary and secondary terminology has helped me immensely in gaining confidence and being assertive - so can't be a bad thing.

 

[tdr1nka]

Occasionally though, safety requires a cyclist to adopt the primary position which prevents motorists from passing.

Only occasionally?

 

[jonny jeez]

Not sure I'm explaining myself well. By all means obviously cycle in a safe position - I'm not advocating cycling in the gutter or clipping parked wing-mirrors but IMO you can be perfectly in control and assertive by cycling in a fluid, safe position .

I think, in fact, that you and I (and many others that refer to primary etc) are all talking about the same thing here, its just the difference in terminology. As BM says, you would naturally move out a little in a pinch gate to "stop" others from pushing you to one side, in doing so, for a brief moment you have moved into primary.

I don't ride "in primary" all the time, that would as you say, promote me onto Darwin's list pretty sharpish. But when the conditions dictate, you have to take an assertive position to ensure that other road sharers know that you are confident and that you know what you are doing...it helps them to know when to pass safely.

Like I say, If I hadn't today, then I dread to think what would have happened.

 

[Arch]

Bryce

Primary and secondary road positioning are not two static positions- it's not a case of black and white - it's not prescriptive in that you have to cycle ie 1.5 metres from the curb in x scenarios or 1 metre in y scenario and does allow for fluidity and most of all safety but importantly, it is wise for anyone using the theoretical information to assess road conditions and hazards to be able to apply theory to practice

Maybe bryce thinks you have to bunny hop from one to the other?

Jeez, I get the odd dimwit on my commute, but I'm glad I don't live in London.

Actually, I'm glad of that anyway, but you know what I mean.

 

[bad boy]

Just read this and glad you both got through your commutes relatively unscathed.

I think some days are just bad days from the off and it would seem there is nothing we can do about it.

At least your both ok, although that truck driver would really get my blood boiling If he called me that.

hope the trip home was a bit better

 

[davidg]

let's face it, there are idiots on bikes, in cars, in lorries and on foot....

the lorry kind is scary...

I have given up any communication with anything other than bikes when I am "questioning" or pointing something out...it just isnt worth it...

 

[BentMikey]

Let's ask Bryce another way:

Bryce, where in the lane would you cycle through an average junction?
What about through a pinch point, say where there is a pedestrian island?
What about along a longer stretch of wide road where there is plenty of room for motor vehicles to overtake?
What about a longer stretch of narrow road, where a motor vehicle can't overtake you without using the oncoming lane?

All quiet, Bryce?

 

[bryce]

Bryce, where in the lane would you cycle through an average junction?
What about through a pinch point, say where there is a pedestrian island?
What about along a longer stretch of wide road where there is plenty of room for motor vehicles to overtake?
What about a longer stretch of narrow road, where a motor vehicle can't overtake you without using the oncoming lane?
All quiet, Bryce?

Yes as I think I risk repeating myself ad nauseam and the thread has effectively been hijacked (apologies to OP) but my point again is I don't believe cyclists should act as road policemen - we shouldn't try to control the traffic behind us by slowing it down unless it's necessary and our motive is clear to drivers behind us - i.e. we are turning right or there is obvious danger ahead. I wouldn't expect a Fiat Panda to hog the outside lane of a motorway at 40mph because its driver feels unsafe being passed at speed. If I was behind said Panda, I wouldn't know why the driver was doing this and this might cause me to become frustrated and act impatiently. Same logic applies to cyclicts adopting 'primary' position without clear motive and for longer than necessary.

Prime example of this is Magna's vid where he adopts 'primary' before a pinch point and is overtaken dangerously by an impatient taxi driver. Vid has been analysed/ argued and each to their own again but I would have let the taxi past - even if it meant me free-wheeling or braking to let him through. Just not worth winding up the driver of a big lump of heavy metal IMO.

But to answer all your questions, my riding position would depend on a variety of other variables - weather, light, type of car behind me, driver's behaviour, my speed, incline etc. But normally I'd be ~75-100cms out from the kerb/ near-side danger spots. For the 4th scenario, I wouldn't be in primary as I'd place trust in the driver behind me. If it was a winding, single-lane road, then I might behave differently - either slow down/ pull in or pull out round the corners.

 

[BentMikey]

Right. So my challenge to you is for us to meet up and go for a filmed ride. Let's see how you ride in real urban situations, and then come back on here and discuss. No need to race, no need for ego on my part, and I'd prefer to make it a positive learning experience for all. I'm not out to denigrate you, and I'm quite happy to repeat a route with you filming me.

 

[bad boy]

Right. So my challenge to you is for us to meet up and go for a filmed ride. Let's see how you ride in real urban situations, and then come back on here and discuss. No need to race, no need for ego on my part, and I'd prefer to make it a positive learning experience for all. I'm not out to denigrate you, and I'm quite happy to repeat a route with you filming me.

Hope you don't mind me saying so but whats up, I just don't get why its really got you going BentMikey, I mean its almost like your goading the guy whats with ?.

Obviously a subject you feel really passionate about I suppose, although we cant educate the masses, each to their own.

I don't mean anything by it just an observation, if it makes a difference I do agree mostly with what your saying.