Motorway question ?

[Linford]

Linford didn't mention an undertake, so that's irrelevant. As I understand it, the car was in the outside lane and wanted to move back left, which is what he ought to do once he's finished is previous overtake.

Of course he might have just been blasting down the outside lane of an empty motorway and decided to move over just to annoy Linford (we don't know what other traffic was behind), in which I'd leave him to get ahead of instead of having him behind me...

What he didn't do (which I would have done in his position) was to look and see how quick the speed of the adjacent vehicles are in the inside lane to each other before attempting to occupy the middle lane. If a following car in the inside lane is doing 70 and approaching the back of a car doing 60, it is easy to anticipate they will be looking to move out to get past as you can see their gap is closing. As the outside lane is empty in front of him, he could have just stayed there for a bit longer as to move into that space will either mean he would have to jump on the brakes behind the 70mph overtaking car, or force the said car back into the inside lane which is what he did - and then feign disbelief that anyone would want to get in his way - he was driving a Ford Ranger (or was that a Q7 )

 

[Linford]

I'm assuming people are driving in a reasonable manner & not changing onto the roundabout at >40mph. If the vehicle on the is on the round about as a vehicle on the right approaches then they take priority but the time frame when this is a conflict is miniscule. If 2 vehicles reach the roundabout at the same time so neither are actually on it the vehicle to the right takes priority or if the 2 vehicles are more-or-less opposite each other on a normal roundabout, there's virtually no potential for conflict & on a mini-roundabout you simply pass behind the other vehicle.

There is a problem with large vehicles & mini roundabouts which cause other problems but then we're moving to 'common sense' rules & non-verbal negotiation between drivers.

This will always be a moot point, and will most likely come down to 'who dares wins'. Ultimately it is a case of first past the give way as that would class them as actually occupying that roundabout space (innit)

 

[Night Train]

This is a good reason to ensure indicator use when changing lanes on a motorway an a quick over the shoulder check before moving out.

It is perfectly likely that, when in lane 1 a car in lane 3 can be in the mirror blind spot at the point when one checks the mirror. A quick shoulder check should catch sight of it, indicating left, just prior to changing lanes. That is assuming that it was indicating.

When I have been in that situation of being the over taking driver in lane 3 I watch the traffic in lane 1 for any indication of an impending overtake. This could be a faster vehicle approaching a slower vehicle or it could be a vehicle tailgating a vehicle in front. If in doubt I will wait until I have passed them before moving back in to the left.
However, if I have been mistaken or caught out then I will return to lane 3 to allow the vehicle in lane 1 to pull out. This is on the basis that lane 3 is clear ahead of me, or I would be undertaking, and that lane 1 is not clear ahead of the other driver and they have fewer options open to them to return to their lane safely. Also I don't trust other drivers to have seen me so I prefer to drive defensively rather then hoping someone else does.

If I were in lane1 overtaking then I would return to lane 1 as I would have left myself plenty of escape routes and wouldn't trust the driver in lane 3 to make allowances for me.

 

[GrasB]

This will always be a moot point, and will most likely come down to 'who dares wins'. Ultimately it is a case of first past the give way as that would class them as actually occupying that roundabout space (innit)

Doesn't stop there being a schema already present for dealing with the situation though.

As for the 4-way block on a mini-roundabout, I've never seen an occurrence of this because all 4 vehicles have reached the roundabout at the same time. Usually it occurs because the driver who actually would have arrived first doesn't take their priority leading to all 4 vehicles being stationary. In theory it should then go on the class of vehicle, most vulnerable first, in practice it's a case of cautiously but firmly pulling across & watching the lanes to your left & righ. Again the driver in front of you shouldn't' be a problem if people don't cut the roundabout.

 

[guitarpete247]

Driver in lane 3 should be aware of what is going on in the other lanes. I look to see if vehicle in the inside lanes are approaching a vehicle in front as I approach. I then check, indicate and move out to allow their overtake.
I always indicate when moving back into lanes 2 or 1 as well as moving out to overtake.
When I was taking driving lessons a mate gave me some advice I always think about. "Always remember everyone else on the road is an idiot and everyone else thinks you are too". So I let everyone know what I'm doing and check over and over to make sure they are aware of me and my intentions.
Still from time to time make mistakes. Nobody's perfect .

 

[guitarpete247]

Doesn't stop there being a schema already present for dealing with the situation though.

As for the 4-way block on a mini-roundabout, I've never seen an occurrence of this because all 4 vehicles have reached the roundabout at the same time. Usually it occurs because the driver who actually would have arrived first doesn't take their priority leading to all 4 vehicles being stationary. In theory it should then go on the class of vehicle, most vulnerable first, in practice it's a case of cautiously but firmly pulling across & watching the lanes to your left & righ. Again the driver in front of you shouldn't' be a problem if people don't cut the roundabout.

The problem I most often see is when someone uses RaB to turn round and go back the way they came.
Here is where I see it most often. Car coming from direction of camera car (obviously on left of road) indicating right. Car coming from the road on right indicating left pulls out and "Whoops nearly". I've seen this a few times luckily not happened to me.

 

[Linford]

This is a good reason to ensure indicator use when changing lanes on a motorway an a quick over the shoulder check before moving out.

It is perfectly likely that, when in lane 1 a car in lane 3 can be in the mirror blind spot at the point when one checks the mirror. A quick shoulder check should catch sight of it, indicating left, just prior to changing lanes. That is assuming that it was indicating.

When I have been in that situation of being the over taking driver in lane 3 I watch the traffic in lane 1 for any indication of an impending overtake. This could be a faster vehicle approaching a slower vehicle or it could be a vehicle tailgating a vehicle in front. If in doubt I will wait until I have passed them before moving back in to the left.
However, if I have been mistaken or caught out then I will return to lane 3 to allow the vehicle in lane 1 to pull out. This is on the basis that lane 3 is clear ahead of me, or I would be undertaking, and that lane 1 is not clear ahead of the other driver and they have fewer options open to them to return to their lane safely. Also I don't trust other drivers to have seen me so I prefer to drive defensively rather then hoping someone else does.

If I were in lane1 overtaking then I would return to lane 1 as I would have left myself plenty of escape routes and wouldn't trust the driver in lane 3 to make allowances for me.

I will say that I always do a 'life saver' over the shoulder observation be it cycling, motorcycling, or car driving, and that is why we didn't connect (I yielded)

 

[Archie_tect]

Driver in lane 3 should be aware of what is going on in the other lanes. I look to see if vehicle in the inside lanes are approaching a vehicle in front as I approach. I then check, indicate and move out to allow their overtake.
I always indicate when moving back into lanes 2 or 1 as well as moving out to overtake.
Still from time to time make mistakes. Nobody's perfect .

Exactly.

 

[mickle]

There is no question, if OP has signalled his intention, checked that the lane is clear and is indicating as he completes his manouever into the middle lane he has priority. The onus of responsibility is squarely on the driver bearing down from behind. Who shouldn't be moving into a space which a car ahead is indicating to move in to. He should have noted the closing speed of the OP's car relative to the car in the nearside lane, anticipated the likelyhood that he'd pull into the middle lane and taken evasive action, either by staying in the outside lane or slowing the **** down. The fact that he is also exceeding the speed limit seems to have escaped everyone's attention.

 

[marinyork]

in the same way which as if you go to overtake a car in the inside lane which at the same time looks to overtake another vehicle themselves into the middle lane at the same time as you are.or simple speaking, the car in front alway has priority in that space, and an overtaking vehicle from the outside lane will always be approaching from behind when they move into that space - if this makes sense.

The overtaking car should not interfere with any other cars and the highway code actually tells you this specific point on motorways

ensure you do not cut in on the vehicle you have overtaken

If you have one car on the right lane trying to move into the middle lane at the same time as the car on the left is trying to do so this still counts as cutting in from the vehicle on the right. The car on the right is overtaking both the vehicles on the left irrespective of which lanes they are in or want to be in. The other rules apply in the highway code to both vehicles but as an additional rule applies to the vehicle on the right the vehicle on the left has priority. This is so even if the car in the right hand lane is a wheel length ahead of the car on the on the left and indicate at the same time. Of course if the vehicle in the right hand lane is travelling much faster and is a sufficient distance ahead it is safe to overtake so it doesn't matter. That's the theory.

 

[Kiwiavenger]

in insurance terms neither has priority! if they where to collide both vehicles would be held equally responsible due to both vehicles changing lanes.

 

[Linford]

in insurance terms neither has priority! if they where to collide both vehicles would be held equally responsible due to both vehicles changing lanes.

The thing is though, in insurance terms, they will happily settle for 50/50 in all instances - and will bully their customers to accept this, the reality is though that when actually tested, the courts will decide who is responsible, and that would be down to the judges call in a county court (which is determined by the highway code)

 

[Kiwiavenger]

The thing is though, in insurance terms, they will happily settle for 50/50 in all instances - and will bully their customers to accept this, the reality is though that when actually tested, the courts will decide who is responsible, and that would be down to the judges call in a county court (which is determined by the highway code)

Even through the courts the judge can only rely on the evidence. if both vehicles are moving to occupy a space of road (middle lane in this instance) then both partys will be held accountable. Both are completing a manouvere and both are leaving their respective lanes. saying that if there was a witness saying that one vehicle was established in the middle lane (even for a few seconds) then that could/would tip the balance in the favour of the "established" vehicle. I hate settling on a 50/50 basis but when it can cost up to £600-700 just to pass a file to solicitors to get it to court its economical to settle on those grounds. a lot of the time ill run it to court though!

Personally i let off, let them pass then overtake and get back up to speed.

 

[marinyork]

Even through the courts the judge can only rely on the evidence. if both vehicles are moving to occupy a space of road (middle lane in this instance) then both partys will be held accountable. both are completing a manouvere and both are leaving their respective lanes. saying that if there was a witness saying that one vehicle was established in the middle lane (even for a few seconds) then that could/would tip the balance in the favour of the "established" vehicle.

Personally i let off, let them pass then overtake and get back up to speed.

There's a bit more to it than that. The highway code is reasonably clear on the matter. They will both be held accountable but the fault is more with the person in the right hand lane than the left hand lane because of what has been said upwards. What happens in reality and what is supposed to happen are two different things, but it's more the fault of the person on the right. The driver in the right lane is overtaking two vehicles, the one on the left only one vehicle.

 

[Linford]

Yup its just crap anticipation on both parties...

Crap for the bloke in the slow lane, by not seeing a car in the fast lane and and an empty middle lane and therefore not realising that it just might get taken.

Crap for the bloke in the fast lane for not realising the slower car might pop out at some stage.

Seen it a million times though.

You can't make a judgment call on the approach speed of a vehicle in the outside lane when looking over your shoulder, but the overtaking car behind you can as they can see you and the car you are approaching in the inside lane. They should IMO therefore exercise caution and hold their position in their clear outside lane until they are past the slower vehicle.