My brake blocks appear to be eating my rims

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Location
Loch side.
@Yellow Saddle so what do you recommend for cleaning rims?

I assume the question is about rims contaminated with something that won't come off with soap and water.

1. A Wheeeee! ride through a muddy puddle whilst applying brakes.
2: Steel wool.
3. Fine water paper
4. Scotch pad.

The order is not meant to ascending or descending. Just about any slightly abrasive substance will do.

All of these methods will also work to deglaze a rim that's honking when braking, no matter how clean it is. The rim in the photo is gazed and will most likely be noisy.
 

Smurfy

Naturist Smurf
The brakes on my two week old specialized sirrus were getting increasingly noisy, when I went to clean the the rims and blocks I found fairly large bits of aluminium embedded in the block ( see attached ) I don't know why this has happened and am concerned that I've knackered my wheels. All advice appreciated View attachment 101374
The 'bits of aluminium' start off as tiny pieces of road grit embedded in the brake block. These grit particles wear away aluminium from the rim when you brake, so you then have a tiny particle of grit surrounded by powdered aluminium, leading to the 'bits of aluminium' appearance.

The way to deal with this is to use the pointy end of a craft knife to lift the particles of grit out of the brake block. Have you been riding in rain? The problem is always worst in wet weather, when road grit mixes with water, gets thrown up all over the rims as you ride, and becomes embedded in the brake blocks when you apply the brakes.
 

Globalti

Legendary Member
As posted elsewhere I once ruined an alloy rim in a few yards when a pad picked up a piece of grit. There was snow on the ground and my brake blocks were iced up so I applied the rear brake with heavy pressure hoping to warm it up. In a few yards the piece of grit cut a neat groove in the braking surface, which burst open under tyre pressure.

My next road bike will have discs for winter riding.
 

Smurfy

Naturist Smurf
@Yellow Saddle how do you rate swiss stop pads in comparison to koolstop pads?
Don't Swiss Stop have numerous pad compounds. I'd say at a guess, the softer the pad, the easier it is for grit to embed (see my previous post). In a non-destructive shop test I'd suggest sticking your nail into the pad and see which ones seem softest. Of course it's swings and roundabouts, as softer pads tend to give higher coefficient of friction, and so give stronger braking for the same lever pressure.
 

fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
Just get aftermarket pads. The cheaper stock pads are usually rather hard and offer poor braking.

I clean my rims with soap and water after every wet ride. I still wear out rims in 18 months on the commuter.
 
Location
Loch side.
The 'bits of aluminium' start off as tiny pieces of road grit embedded in the brake block. These grit particles wear away aluminium from the rim when you brake, so you then have a tiny particle of grit surrounded by powdered aluminium, leading to the 'bits of aluminium' appearance.

The way to deal with this is to use the pointy end of a craft knife to lift the particles of grit out of the brake block. Have you been riding in rain? The problem is always worst in wet weather, when road grit mixes with water, gets thrown up all over the rims as you ride, and becomes embedded in the brake blocks when you apply the brakes.
No, that's not how it works. You probably have me on ignore, hence the contradictory answer. Although grit can embed in a pad as Globalti explained, that's not the primary reason for rim material pick-up. It is the high temperature at the pad/rim interface that causes changes in the pad composition.

Further, it has nothing to do with the compound's hardness of softness. It is in the rubber chemistry. A Koolstop Salmon pad has just about the same hardness (around 90 Shore) as a Shimano or Tektro pad.

Go to the US Patent Office website and search for the now-expired Koolstop compound.
 
Location
Loch side.
@Yellow Saddle how do you rate swiss stop pads in comparison to koolstop pads?
I have never used them. Where I used to operate they were not available on the market.
 

Smurfy

Naturist Smurf
No, that's not how it works. You probably have me on ignore, hence the contradictory answer. Although grit can embed in a pad as Globalti explained, that's not the primary reason for rim material pick-up. It is the high temperature at the pad/rim interface that causes changes in the pad composition.

Further, it has nothing to do with the compound's hardness of softness. It is in the rubber chemistry. A Koolstop Salmon pad has just about the same hardness (around 90 Shore) as a Shimano or Tektro pad.

Go to the US Patent Office website and search for the now-expired Koolstop compound.
If it's not embedded grit, how does a rubber pad wear away an aluminium rim?
 
Location
Loch side.
If it's not embedded grit, how does a rubber pad wear away an aluminium rim?
Your assumption is that rubber can only wear aluminium when it has some sort of abrasive embedded in it. However, in the dry, on tarmac roads, there is no grit to embed and rubber still abrades the aluminium. Obviously in the wet, the additional silica particles in the road water helps to speed up the process but in its absence it still wears away the aluminium.

Friction interfaces such as brakes are poorly understood. Typically, there is a soft and a hard compound sliding against each other. In this case, it is rubber and aluminium. When braking, the rubber heats up due to stretching of the molecules and the breaking of the covalent bonds between the molecules. This heat cannot go anywhere since rubber is a poor conductor of heat and is thus transferred to the aluminium, an excellent conductor. Eventually the rim does feel warm because of the even distribution of the heat with time. But at the time of braking there is lots of heat at the interface, enough to remove aluminium molecules and immediately oxidise them, hence the black sludge, even in the rain.

When the rubber's chemistry changes in tiny spots, that's where the larger pick-up problem arises. If you examine a rim that's been gouged by a stone, as Gobalti describes, you will see that the edges are jagged, as you would expect from a cold scrape. If you inspect the ridges caused by alu pick-up, you will see that temperature was involved and the metal has a smoother appearance at the edges of the groove. Alu starts to become soft at about 450C (IIRC, that's about the temperature at which it is pushed through dies for extrusion profiles) and easily reaches that temperature at the pad/rubber interface. All it needs at that temperature is a piece of crystalised rubber and it rolls up as we see in brake pads.
 

Smurfy

Naturist Smurf
Your assumption is that rubber can only wear aluminium when it has some sort of abrasive embedded in it. However, in the dry, on tarmac roads, there is no grit to embed and rubber still abrades the aluminium. Obviously in the wet, the additional silica particles in the road water helps to speed up the process but in its absence it still wears away the aluminium.

Friction interfaces such as brakes are poorly understood. Typically, there is a soft and a hard compound sliding against each other. In this case, it is rubber and aluminium. When braking, the rubber heats up due to stretching of the molecules and the breaking of the covalent bonds between the molecules. This heat cannot go anywhere since rubber is a poor conductor of heat and is thus transferred to the aluminium, an excellent conductor. Eventually the rim does feel warm because of the even distribution of the heat with time. But at the time of braking there is lots of heat at the interface, enough to remove aluminium molecules and immediately oxidise them, hence the black sludge, even in the rain.

When the rubber's chemistry changes in tiny spots, that's where the larger pick-up problem arises. If you examine a rim that's been gouged by a stone, as Gobalti describes, you will see that the edges are jagged, as you would expect from a cold scrape. If you inspect the ridges caused by alu pick-up, you will see that temperature was involved and the metal has a smoother appearance at the edges of the groove. Alu starts to become soft at about 450C (IIRC, that's about the temperature at which it is pushed through dies for extrusion profiles) and easily reaches that temperature at the pad/rubber interface. All it needs at that temperature is a piece of crystalised rubber and it rolls up as we see in brake pads.
1. I'd suggest that the transfer of aluminium to pad under the conditions you describe is very low.
2. What you describe will not lead to the grit on metal sound, which I think is what the OP means when he says his brakes are noisy.
3. Although the high local temperatures result in a small amount of material transfer, 'crystallised rubber' will never result in the same highly damaging abrasion as grit, for the simple reason that only materials significantly harder than aluminium are able to deeply scratch or seriously abrade the rim.
4. Your comparison to extrusion is not a good one, as extrusion requires enormous pressure as well as high temperature.
 
OP
OP
Ihatehills

Ihatehills

Senior Member
Location
Cornwall
Thanks for all the replies, it is definitely aluminium that I'm digging out, the bike is only 9 days old and I have ridden 85 miles on it I am concerned as my rims now look rough and scored.
Is this a guarantee issue or negligence on my part?, the rim brakes on my old bike never gave any problems and apart from the occasional clean I left them to their own devices.
 
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