My Head is still hurting ... 700c verses 26 inch

[MacB]

Interesting, though maybe a bit to far off topic. Why the change from ti to steel? I've recently gone the same way (Not on my Rohloff bike) but my decision was financial, knowing the price of the Shand frames I doubt your motivation was the same.

I'm not that refined so both steel or ti feel fine to me, as do the others to be honest...or maybe my bulk just beats them all into being compliant. After that we get into a variety of reasons, my choice of Ti was mainly based on corrosion resistance. My reason for the new frames was basically to get the rocker dropouts on all of them. So I took it one at a time, the new tourer/allrounder/commuter had to be Ti for the corrosion resistance. This is the bike that will be the go to in lousy weather, the one I train on and will have the studded tyres in Winter. It certainly wasn't a lightweight option, by the time I'd beefed up the tubing and fitted all the gubbins it's as heavy as any steel tourer. Next was the new 29er frame and I decided that offroad potential for breakage was much higher so this was a cheaper steel frame albeit with pricier bits on it. If I do damage the frame then hopefully it could be repaired or at least the expensive bits/dropouts salvaged. Plus I'm a real off road novice and it had been feeling too much like all the gear and no idea.

This left me with the road/cross Ti frame that I'd had powdercoated green and having to accept that I can't cope with the hand position created on drops....that's a result of my elbow surgeries and nothing to do with drop bars. It's too small a frame ETT wise to work with my bars of choice. Then I'd always hankered after a stripped down Rohloff build and had perused the Thorn Mercury several times.

So it came down to Ti or steel and what builder, I'd looked at Shand before and I like the aesthetics of steel tubing. When I realised they offered my preferred dropouts the decision became easier. The fact that I wanted it green again and that this is going to be a fair weather type of bike decided me on steel. I'm afraid I also had to go with a green that's far closer to Vernons Woodrup than my existing frame...it's just so darn cool.

Like you say I could have gone Ti across the board but I didn't want three grey frames and even if I don't look after my steel well it'll still probably outlive me.

 

[vernon]

Recently Rohloff have revised down the minimum ratios, I don't know if you're working off the old ones or the new. There's also a recommendation for riders under 100 kg and another for tandems and riders over 100kg. Thorn have been supplying bikes with a lower gearing than the recommendation for at least ten years without problem, that probably influenced the revision.

Gearing is a personal thing, on road or hard surface I don't want a gear under about 24", if I can't get up something on that it's probably quicker to walk.

Mine is done to the new recommendation.

It's always nicer to be able to say 'I pedalled every inch of my LEJOG'

No doubt when I'm 30% lighter, a 24" bottom gear will meet my revised needs......

 

[Cycleops]

What happened to the days when if you wanted a touring bike you went out and bought a Dawes Galaxy or similar and just rode it. OK maybe I am living in the past and this is no longer possible. And why is a Rohloff so imperative? Or is there just too much choice for people with too much money and too much choice?

 

[MacB]

What happened to the days when if you wanted a touring bike you went out and bought a Dawes Galaxy or similar and just rode it. OK maybe I am living in the past and this is no longer possible. And why is a Rohloff so imperative? Or is there just too much choice for people with too much money and too much choice?

and the choice would still be the same do you go for a Galaxy with 700c wheels or something else with 26"? Rohloff is far from imperative and you'll find tales of people changing back to derailleurs from one. But it tends to be people for whom weight and speed factor more highly, I haven't come across much evidence of longer distance cyclists and tourers wanting to change back.

There's also the fact that more traditional tourers tend to max out tyre clearance at about 700x32, people have become more adventurous or have higher expectations of what they should be able to ride over. I wouldn't consider a tourer that couldn't take at least a 700x40 tyre and for rougher stuff then I'd be looking for MTB tyre width clearances.

As for prices well that's entirely subjective and no doubt some of us have more money than sense. I like to look at relative prices rather than absolutes. So for me a Rohloff wheel doesn't cost £1k it costs £1k minus the other stuff that I'd need to buy instead. Once you start adding it all up it becomes more interesting, a mid range flat bar example - rear wheel £150, FD £25, RD £45, cassette £20, shifters £50 - so that's £290 bringing the Rohloff premium down to £610. But if you were buying higher end stuff then that premium could easily be reduced to £3-500. Throw in savings on wear and tear over a couple of years and you're not left with much.

 

[vernon]

What happened to the days when if you wanted a touring bike you went out and bought a Dawes Galaxy or similar and just rode it. OK maybe I am living in the past and this is no longer possible. And why is a Rohloff so imperative? Or is there just too much choice for people with too much money and too much choice?

Isn't that sentiment more aligned with model T-Fords, 'you can have any colour you want as long as it's black'?

The Dawes Galaxy is one of many touring bikes and it's not always the best choice. I've had two and both of their frames failed in an identical manner. I had one repaired/bodged to see me through to the end of a LEJOG the other I abandoned in Orleans and purchased a Decathlon hybrid as superior replacement.

 

[P.H]

What happened to the days when if you wanted a touring bike you went out and bought a Dawes Galaxy or similar and just rode it.

Consumerism, capitalism. Global markets, information technology... I could go on.
We live in a different world to that of our Fathers and Grandfathers, we are materially a lot better off, with far more choice and easier access to information. We could have a long discussion on whether that makes it a better world, though that wouldn't change the way it is. There are still people who go to a bike shop, chose a bike and ride it, sometimes they're happy with that, sometimes not. There have also always been people who have studied every last detail and choice and had someone build it for them, custom bikes are nothing new. It's just there are now more people able to afford such choices and the market has grown to cater for them.
I was going to give my reasons for buying a Rohloff, but there'd be no more relevant than if someone bought one because it's available in a shiny red finish. Do I need one? Of course not, there isn't a single ride I've done on it, that I couldn't have done on a £300 bike from Halfords. There's been 38,000 miles of them, commuting, touring Audax, but mostly just car replacement. I'm glad I chose it.

 

[P.H]

As for prices well that's entirely subjective and no doubt some of us have more money than sense. I like to look at relative prices rather than absolutes. So for me a Rohloff wheel doesn't cost £1k it costs £1k minus the other stuff that I'd need to buy instead. Once you start adding it all up it becomes more interesting, a mid range flat bar example - rear wheel £150, FD £25, RD £45, cassette £20, shifters £50 - so that's £290 bringing the Rohloff premium down to £610. But if you were buying higher end stuff then that premium could easily be reduced to £3-500. Throw in savings on wear and tear over a couple of years and you're not left with much.

I use the Thorn price list as a comparison, the Rohloff Raven and derailleur Sherpa are otherwise pretty similar bikes. When I bought my Raven in 2004, the price difference was £310, it's now about £650 with similar spec and a quality hub. I haven't done a comparison on running costs recently, I did quite a detailed one when I was commuting 130 miles a week on it (Half off road) It didn't take long to pay back* the extra cost and if I hadn't bought the Raven I would have bought some other quality bike.
And then there's the service, when it was six years old I broke the flange on the hub, a spoke pulled through. It had a new shell fitted, within a week, free of charge, I didn't even pay the postage. Who else would offer that level of service on a six year old component?

*I'd have to find the spreadsheet, I think it was around 30 months.

 

[MacB]

I use the Thorn price list as a comparison, the Rohloff Raven and derailleur Sherpa are otherwise pretty similar bikes. When I bought my Raven in 2004, the price difference was £310, it's now about £650 with similar spec and a quality hub. I haven't done a comparison on running costs recently, I did quite a detailed one when I was commuting 130 miles a week on it (Half off road) It didn't take long to pay back* the extra cost and if I hadn't bought the Raven I would have bought some other quality bike.
And then there's the service, when it was six years old I broke the flange on the hub, a spoke pulled through. It had a new shell fitted, within a week, free of charge, I didn't even pay the postage. Who else would offer that level of service on a six year old component?

*I'd have to find the spreadsheet, I think it was around 30 months.

interesting though I had an error in my maths and it should have been £710 not £610 but either way fits in pretty well with your comparison. Two and a half years for highish useage would seem about right in repayment terms.

I also liked your point in the previous post about your reasons for buying a Rohloff not being relevant as that's pretty much how I feel. For example my choice of hub gear is primarily motivated by the ability to change gear when not pedalling.

 

[vernon]

I was going to give my reasons for buying a Rohloff, but there'd be no more relevant than if someone bought one because it's available in a shiny red finish.

The shiny red finish is very alluring but it clashed with the even more alluring green paint on the frame. It was also easier to get black rims, spokes dyno hub and finishing kit in black.

I have no other reasons for buying the Chimera than I like the ride and the aesthetics of the bike.

 

[MacB]

The shiny red finish is very alluring but it clashed with the even more alluring green paint on the frame.

shocking, a man of such taste as to buy a green frame then claims that red would clash - red and green are a match made in heaven

 

[vernon]

shocking, a man of such taste as to buy a green frame then claims that red would clash - red and green are a match made in heaven

Only if you are an apple.

 

[willem]

The biggest advantage of 26 inch wheels is that you can get and fit wider tyres. For me that matters a lot because my bad back needs the comfort. This is all the more important because traffic has become so much more crowded than thirty years ago that I find myself riding trails and small roads with bad road surfaces a lot more than I used to do. I don't mind because it also gets me closer to nature. The choice in wide touring tyres is much bigger in 50 mm 26 inch tyres, from fast to heavy duty. In 700c the choice is more limited, and especially the heavier ones feel lumpy because of their much higher rotational inertia. And of course bigger wheels are heavier for a given width. With a 32 spoke Rohloff wheel the wheel strength argument was still quite powerful, but I don't think it matters that much now that we have 36 spoke Rohloff wheels. I ride a custom built steel bike with Rohloff and drop bar, and even though the bar is at just above saddle height, the proportions look right for a person of average height such as myself. I agree that 26 inch wheels look a bit odd on a really large frame.

 

[Skipper9999]

My mind has been made up ..700c thanks for all the debate and helpful advise . My full thread on the bike is at .........

Visiting Thorn - Thinking of a New Raven - Any tips
http://www.cyclechat.net/index.php?...---Thinking-of-a-New-Raven---Any-tips.122754/