New commute, new problems...

[magnatom]

Ah, my glasses don't have a rectangular cross section (dhb glasses).

 

[Origamist]

They also work with helmets, but I think you need an adaptor...

 

[tdr1nka]

I found a bike mounted mirror gives you a good idea of vehicles approaching but not their speed.

Maybe it's been because of the weather but I've been getting a lot of these kind of overtakes in the past weeks, you look back to see a vehicle approaching, they slow as they near you then tailgate revving their motors until they get the tiniest fraction of a gap to pass.

Unluckily I didn't have the camera on yesterday but when Miss t & I were on our way home on the tandem I signalled right to overtake a stationary bus and pulled out into the oncoming lane as there was no traffic. About halfway along the length of the double decker the driver pulled away with us along side and forcing us to stay on the wrong side of the road until I could slow and pull back in behind.

The driver just can't have used his mirror before he pulled away or he would have seen us!

At the lights I tapped on his window to ask if he saw what had happened and his reaction was ungracious to say the least. What with having a now rather worried 8 year old on board I left the driver to it, making my feelings plain but not getting the reg to report him with.

Why didn't I have the camera?

 

[Bollo]

It's a good point, but I certainly would not want to be surprised by overtaking traffic like Bollo has been, especially not on fast rural roads and the associated deathrates.

Reading my post back I realise I haven't expressed myself clearly. I wasn't surprised by the existence of the passing vehicle (in the case I'm thinking of, it was a knackered old transit that you could hear from about half a mile away) but that he'd even dreamt of overtaking, despite a reasonably strong primary position from me. On roads like the one in magger's video, things happen fast and they happen close. Seeing something and being able to do something about it can be very different things. My mistake was to assume that a driver would behave in a particular, rational way.

My point was more about the options available to a cyclist to control their environment on fast B roads against the behaviour required from motorists to ensure a safe overtake given the very limited time in which to make any decisions.

In a typical narrow, fast B road scenario, the cyclist has two options - either hold a strong primary or move left into the gutter (the road is about a transit van wide, so primary and the gutter may not be separated by much more than a metre). That's really about it.

Holding primary in theory prevents an overtake if the driver's concentrating and reacts in a reasonable time frame, given possibly limited sightlines and a high closing speed. But, this leaves no margin for error if the driver isn't concentrating but on the mobile, fiddling with the radio or setting the satnav. Also, there's a chance that the driver might simply not understand that you're going to stay in the middle of the road, which delays any sort of reaction, possibly until its too late.

Moving to the gutter increases the chance that an observant but misguided motorist might decide to squeeze past at high speed, but it might give enough margin of error to allow you, the overtaking car and a car coming in the opposite direction all to get past each other with nothing more than dirty underpants.

The driver will often make a decision about whether to brake or try an overtake very late in the interaction, giving the cyclist a very short time to observe the effect of the driver's decision (vehicle dips forward while braking or moves towards the centre of the road) and adjust their road position accordingly (stay in primary or bail out).

That's why I avoid certain rural B-roads - whatever precautions you take in terms of observation, road positioning etc, you're still disproportionately at the mercy of drivers' behaviour and more likely to suffer badly from the consequences of poor driving.

 

[Bollo]

Ah, my glasses don't have a rectangular cross section (dhb glasses).

I tried a handlebar mount mirror for a while, but the small field of view and the vibration from the road made it almost useless. Anyway, I'd have thought you'd have developed a 3D head-up display from a couple of rear mounted cameras.

 

[Origamist]

The driver will often make a decision about whether to brake or try an overtake very late in the interaction, giving the cyclist a very short time to observe the effect of the driver's decision (vehicle dips forward while braking or moves towards the centre of the road) and adjust their road position accordingly (stay in primary or bail out).

That's why I avoid certain rural B-roads - whatever precautions you take in terms of observation, road positioning etc, you're still disproportionately at the mercy of drivers' behaviour and more likely to suffer badly from the consequences of poor driving.

The last para sums it up for me. Being aware of a problem is not the same as being able to avoid it. Look for signs of danger and do everything you can to avoid or mitigate an incident, but vulnerable cyclists can only do so much...

In this vid an accomplished rider of this parish has no time to react to a dangerous overtake and contact:


View: http://www.youtube.com/user/lsmike#p/u/12/jZhcueH2wz0

 

[MrRidley]

This hill gets the heart pumping on the cycle home.

Oh, I like how a good part of my commute is on streetview!

You must be near Solid Rock Cycles, you must have a look in there, some lovely bikes.

 

[BentMikey]

Bollo, I take what you're saying, but I wonder whether you didn't leave the door open like I did in the video below?

The last para sums it up for me. Being aware of a problem is not the same as being able to avoid it. Look for signs of danger and do everything you can to avoid or mitigate an incident, but vulnerable cyclists can only do so much...

In this vid an accomplished rider of this parish has no time to react to a dangerous overtake and contact:


View: http://www.youtube.com/user/lsmike#p/u/12/jZhcueH2wz0

In fairness, that's not the best defensive cyclecraft being demonstrated there. The door could be closed much better than that, both by being further out to the right, and by use of the arm as described earlier. The driver only overtook because I left enough space for them to do so. I wasn't assertive enough, and I knew the driver was coming. There was plenty of time to react.

I still wouldn't accept being surprised by an overtaking car. In the cases when I haven't seen the car, I know I've failed in looking back.

Apart from this, are you disputing any of my previous points?

 

[Bollo]

Bollo, I take what you're saying, but I wonder whether you didn't leave the door open like I did in the video below?

That's probably true enough as if I'd covered the lane fully, he'd have had me off or had a head-on with the approaching car. I think I was most guilty of naivety, complacency or whatever, thinking that there was no way anyone would think of overtaking in that scenario.

This thread made me think back to some advanced driving stuff I did about ten years ago. I think the IAM have changed the assessments they do now, but this was arranged through some Impreza owners club contacts in the IAM (I know, I know!). Anyways, I scored pretty well on the observation but not so good on decision-making (car control was 'satisfactory'). I'd tend to default to subjectively risk-averse behaviour and also take a long time doing it. I'd say I'm the same on a bike. The classic example of this is the idea of primary - I know on balance its usually (not always) best to stick in primary, but I'll admit to not liking it when the speed differences are high and probably do drift left if there's danger about and not a lot of time and room in which to deal with it. This scenario happens most often on the rural B roads, so I guess that's why I try to avoid them.

 

[Origamist]

In fairness, that's not the best defensive cyclecraft being demonstrated there. The door could be closed much better than that, both by being further out to the right, and by use of the arm as described earlier. The driver only overtook because I left enough space for them to do so. I wasn't assertive enough, and I knew the driver was coming. There was plenty of time to react.

You're a braver and better man than me if your going to stick your arm out in front of an overtaking vehicle doing twice or three times your own speed. If you'd been a foot further to your right, she still might have tried to overtake and you might not be here today to post. Then again, she might have aborted the pass.

If there was plenty of time to react, why did you not take evasive action? I'm guessing because you were not expecting the dangerous proximity of the pass? Most of us know when an overtake is coming, but what can we do if a driver is prepared to force us left or hit us in order to execute an overtake?

I still wouldn't accept being surprised by an overtaking car. In the cases when I haven't seen the car, I know I've failed in looking back.

It's very rare that I fail to perceive an overtaking vehicle, but I am often surprised that a vehicle has attempted an imbecelic overtake in the first place. That's an important distinction.

 

[BentMikey]

It seems to me from your post that you don't believe in primary position, or rather that you have no confidence in it actually working? I think John Franklin is absolutely right with primary - it's where you will be seen and not ignored. Sometimes it can be very hard to be courageous enough to stay there, especially when I come from a car culture country that has it much much worse than the UK.

It's not brave at all to put my arm out - I can always pull it back in, though I rarely have felt the need to. More than this, it almost always turns a close or very close pass into a very wide one. Better an arm impact than a whole body/bike one, given the far smaller risk of injury.

 

[BentMikey]

That's probably true enough as if I'd covered the lane fully, he'd have had me off or had a head-on with the approaching car. I think I was most guilty of naivety, complacency or whatever, thinking that there was no way anyone would think of overtaking in that scenario.

The second part of this para is me exactly for the overtake video Origamist posted. The first part sounds like the argument the unconverted use against primary position all the time on cycling forums. If we leave a door open, they will take advantage and try to squeeze through.

 

[Origamist]

It seems to me from your post that you don't believe in primary position, or rather that you have no confidence in it actually working? .

Incorrect. What is critical is knowing when to adopt it and what to do if it does not have the desired effect.

I think John Franklin is absolutely right with primary - it's where you will be seen and not ignored.

You're more likely to be seen and less likely to be ignored. Another important distinction.

It's not brave at all to put my arm out - I can always pull it back in, though I rarely have felt the need to. More than this, it almost always turns a close or very close pass into a very wide one. Better an arm impact than a whole body/bike one, given the far smaller risk of injury.

Better to try and avoid taking any impact - that's why primary and to a lesser extent secondary allows you space to manoeuvre.

I refer you to my earlier question:

If there was plenty of time to react, why did you not take evasive action? I'm guessing because you were not expecting the dangerous proximity of the pass? Most of us know when an overtake is coming, but what can we do if a driver is prepared to force us left or hit us in order to execute an overtake?

If you knew the driver was coming and had not surprised you, why did you not react?

 

[BentMikey]

Why are you assuming I didn't react? You of all people should know better than to make assumptions like that. It's certainly true that I could have reacted and planned ahead better than I did, but that's already been addressed.

 

[BentMikey]

p.s. where is video footage of your cycling? How about we meet up and I film your riding for a while.