Newbie warning: Low Sun.

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BlackPanther

Hyper-Fast Recumbent Riding Member.
Location
Doncaster.
Waterlooville lollipop man’s bright uniform may have been ‘camouflage’

"A jury was told the combination of the glare from the sun and the bright yellow, orange and silver uniform may have made lollipop man Ray Elsmore difficult to see.

The evidence was read out at Southampton Crown Court from a statement by Dr Martin Langham, who specialises in the effect of glare on drivers."


(The driver was charged with causing death by careless driving but the case was dropped.)

By the idiot drivers defence team. Just because 'evidence' is offered by the defence, it doesn't make it true! I don't wear hiviz but have a few nicely placed reflective stickers, and lights all round all the time. Flashing in daylight and, so as not to annoy, on steady in the dark.
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
Drivers have more difficulty recognising and reacting to pedestrians and cyclists under low-low conditions, and this effect is even more pronounced among older drivers. However, when pedestrians (and presumably cyclists) wear retro-reflective materials on their moving joints (biological motion, or biomotion), this decrement in recognition is greatly ameliorated in both younger and older drivers. - See more at: http://www.roadsafetyknowledgecentre.org.uk/help-forum/252.html#sthash.oNoZj48c.dpuf

a statement by Dr Martin Langham, who specialises in the effect of glare on drivers
In answer to the query:
"any research carried out re the effectiveness of hi-vis clothing and / or accessories in reduction of casualties? "

Dr Langham wrote:

At night high vis adds a little but only works if the pedestrians is expected in the road and the vehicle is only travelling under 27-28mph. That's to say if a pedestrian is on a dark country lane and you don't expect to find them there no matter how much reflective tape you have on not a lot will happen. From my forensic practice its only after impact does a driver know that there was someone in the road. The problem is that drivers can't recognise the shape of the reflective material as 'human'. The reflective material looks like an 'H' shape. Both Joanne and us have found better designs (improves conspicuity by a factor of 3) but appears to be little interest out there.

During the day it's not the reflective materials that help but the fluorescent material that helps. The material takes light from the UV spectrum and converts it to visible. Good colours are lime yellow or 'Saturn yellow' or 'limeyellow', or orange 'swamp berry orange' or 'international orange' - as its also known. Now both colours are good and I have a set of each type of clothing. It all depends on your environment. Orange works the best in rural environments and in the jungle because there is lots of green stuff around. Yes we test things in jungles as well as in Sussex
Yellow / lime yellow works well in urban environments because there is not a lot of green stuff around. Also mine has blue tape and for a moment motorists thinks I have some power to stop them before they realise I'm doing research.

Now the interesting bit are the variations out there. Some think that if orange and green are good then use both. Silly really as that works as camouflage. I did a review a while back to say it was a daft idea but I see them around on the roads. Some put patterns on the clothes and then that works as disruptive camouflage. Some have put lights on them and that works as motion camouflage. So generally makers of this stuff are making neat camouflage. I had a scientist from the US military with me and he took some photos of a school crossing patrol person he thought it was the best urban disruptive camouflage he had ever seen. Perhaps shows that human Factors people need to go out more. Might see troops holding a school crossing patrol sign at some point! Or perhaps you will not 'see' them.

I have also seen blue clothing on children if you want to hide things put them in blue the human eye finds blue the most difficult colour to 'see'.

Some children also have blue 'high vis' with reflective 'tags'. Which is a combination of poor colour and motion camouflage. One local council put reflective tags and stripes on cycles, which is the ultimate in all types of camouflage.

Pink yes it sounds daft but . . . although we did not test it Pink worked rather well. Also horsey types were often young ladies who liked pink. Safety clothing that you like well that's half the battle to get it worn.
 
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mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Well, pedal reflectors cover the biomotion thing and I think most of us who have suffered multiple winter SMIDSYs have already realised that the reflective H and stripe patterns aren't well-recognised, but the upshot of that ramble on flourescence seems to be that you should carry several single-colour tops and change each time you go from a rural area to a built-up area else you are indeed risking camouflage. Changing at each edge of each built-up area is clearly an excessively bonkers faff for most cyclists... so let's everyone just keep wearing ordinary clothes that make it easy to recognise us as human :smile:
 

froze

Über Member
Let's see, I'm riding into a low sun but asked to please not use a bright flasher so others can see me...hmmm, does that make sense to anyone?

What's weird is that I've been riding for over 40 years and encountered low sun situations a lot obviously, yet never ran into a problem even before bright LED tail lights.
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
[QUOTE 4494939, member: 9609"]The other direction [ie riding with sun behind you] is also worth considering, if you can see your own shadow in front of you, people coming towards you may not be able to see you.[/QUOTE]
Hopefully they are on their (the other) side of the road, but on narrow roads . . .
I always have the sun behind me, so the added advantage that I have no problem seeing things
And the motorists coming up behind are not being periodically 'blinded' by the morning or evening sun at low elevations. Well worth considering when planning a long ride on a day forecast to be sunny: go clockwise (west, north, east).
I'm riding into a low sun but asked to please not use a bright flasher
Hopefully that red rear flasher will increase the chances of you being seen (and recognised as a cyclist) by the motorist with reduced visibility due to the intermittent glare of the low sun.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Hopefully that red rear flasher will increase the chances of you being seen (and recognised as a cyclist) by the motorist with reduced visibility due to the intermittent glare of the low sun.
Nah, it'll just reduce the contrast between you and the low sun, making you blend into it more.
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
it'll just reduce the contrast between you and the low sun, making you blend into it more.
How can a red flasher at the rear augmenting the silhouette of your body/bike 'reduce the contrast' and 'make you blend in more'? Don't just assert, say why?
Choice one: driver (with sun in eyes) behind one sees, hopefully in good time, cyclist ahead.
Choice two: driver (with sun in eyes) behind one sees, hopefully in even better time, cyclist with red flashing light. At worst, it will make no difference; at worst.
If you really believe what you've asserted, and are not just trolling, we'll just have to disagree (and others can make their own judgement).
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
How can a red flasher at the rear augmenting the silhouette of your body/bike 'reduce the contrast' and 'make you blend in more'? Don't just assert, say why?
If you increase the brightness of the darkest part, that's almost a definition of "reduce the contrast", isn't it? I struggle to explain that another way. If you tried to explain how the heck you feel it could increase contrast instead of asserting, that might help this discussion.

Also, there's choice three: driver sees you later, maybe not at all.
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
explain how the heck you feel it could increase contrast
What colour is the bull's eye on a dart board? I suggest it is that colour because it is a contrast to the surrounding 99.9+%. (Assumes a dart board of radius 20cm and bull's eye of one cm^2.) Now imagine it flashing. Even more contrasting.
And if Choice three comes to pass, I'd like to think I'd done my best to increase my conspicuity, in the difficult driving conditions with which he or she is having to cope. And if I'm driving, I'd appreciate any cyclist making that extra effort, without compulsion, and vicariously enjoy his/her ride as, when it is safe, I pass. If you drove more, you might change your mind.
 

ayceejay

Guru
Location
Rural Quebec
I turned into a low sun yesterday morning and rode with my head down looking up periodically. At one point I looked up and saw, what I call an impaler coming toward me - I hate farmers, this thing is the total width of the road so slow down big guy
impalers.gif
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
What colour is the bull's eye on a dart board? I suggest it is that colour because it is a contrast to the surrounding 99.9+%. (Assumes a dart board of radius 20cm and bull's eye of one cm^2.) Now imagine it flashing. Even more contrasting.
The bullseye is red surrounded by green, which is contrasting hue. Neither are light sources. Most dartboard lights are a bit yellow-y, which the red reflects much more strongly than the green.

For a more relevant thought experiment, imagine if the whole board was a bright orangey-yellow light except the number 3 (the bottom segment) which is black... very contrasty. Then imagine the 3 is a red light but not as strong as the yellow - is the lit yellow+red more or less contrast than the lit yellow+unlit black?

If you drove more, you might change your mind.
I spent a few winters driving into low sun far more than I'd like. One due to a family crisis 120 miles from my then home and a few commuting 90 miles, both mostly east-west and both single carriageway which not all cyclists can avoid easily.

If you'd like to criticise anything, you could blame my defective eyesight which makes me far more sensitive than average to contrasting brightness and less to contrasting hues (and glasses cannot correct that aspect), but I don't think many people find red on orangey-yellow an easy combination to differentiate.
 

Dogtrousers

Kilometre nibbler
Remember ... if the sun is in your eyes, then it's also in the eyes of those behind you. Be particularly worried about vehicles behind. If your shadow is ahead of you the sun is in the eyes of vehicles approaching, so be be particularly worried about those ahead.

Or maybe just: if the sun is low (or even if it isn't) be particularly aware of vehicles ... anywhere.:wacko:
 

wafter

I like steel bikes and I cannot lie..
Location
Oxford
I thought about this earlier in the week driving back from work; noticing how easily a poorly-illuminated cyclist could disappear into the shadows of the hedgerows in front of me. Not that I'm one for over-doing it on the safety gear, but a compelling argument for using high-vis and lights during the day tbh.
 
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