Newbie with old Raleigh, Help with age & model please.

[Mickhigham]

Hi folks, first post as I happened by a rough old Raleigh today which I decided to adopt.

I'm trying to firm up a model and manufacturing date before deciding to either just give it tyres and tubes along with basic fettling and a wipe with an oily rag, or to take it further, but just a couple of things are throwing me.

All thoughts appreciated, I'm more used to playing with things with engines and actually trying to ride it will either finish me off or be the start of new found health

Careful cleaning revealed the remnants of a Raleigh decal on the headstock, and I found a number on the frame just below the seat. 27965P which from looking on the web dates it to around 1947? More searching has me thinking it is a "Dawn model 11"

Thoughts and clarification would be good if anyone knows for sure, there is also another number on the frame underside below the peddles that is 40832 with a Z above it.

What is puzzling me is the lack of bright work, what little there is has been painted black at one point though some of that has flaked away, handlebars and wheel rims show no signs of ever having had chrome but I suppose age could have done away with it, even the three speed Sturmey Archer AM hub was black before I cleaned the paint away to try to get a date, there isn't one, just "patent applied for" where the date would normally be. I'm also under the impression the quadrant gear selector should have been a trigger on the handlebar type under the "optional extra" geared hub.

So, do we think I'm right with model and age, or is there something more to all the black paint such as wartime issue, I wouldn't think so but wouldn't want to go removing the black if it should be there...

Photos below for you to laugh at and see how mad I must be, but I felt sorry for it and love old "machinery"

 

[lpretro1]

It looks older than 1947 judging by the gear shift lever. It may have been painted black during war-time. The rear SA hub should have a date on it which will be stamped on centre of hub in month/year format eg 02/47 which would be feb 1947.

 

[Mickhigham]

Thanks, thats what I was thinking with the gear shift, I cleaned the hub up of the black paint a little, the markings look normal but where you would expect a date it just says "patent applied for"

I'm looking in the center on the main body of the hub across the width of the wheel, is there anywhere else I can look?

By coincidence, I see your in Chorley, if thats Chorley in Lancs I hail from there about seven years ago before moving to the wilds of Scotland, which reminds me I shall have to sort my profile tomorrow

 

[Mad Doug Biker]

It looks older than 1947 judging by the gear shift lever. It may have been painted black during war-time. The rear SA hub should have a date on it which will be stamped on centre of hub in month/year format eg 02/47 which would be feb 1947.

I won't be drawn on how old it looks as I don't know much about Raleighs, but, it could of course be a mix of different aged components as some of it looks old, and yet, other bits..... I expect someone will be along soon who will have more idea.
I saw a list of the Raleigh serial numbers recently and those numbers with the letters certainly ring a bell for that sort of period.

EDIT: Just looked it up (Sheldon Brown), and yes, the 'P' is for 1947-49, but those are with 6 digit numbers, not five, so.... Umm.....

Also, I wouldn't read much into the paintwork as there were some pretty drab looking bikes at one time, regardless of war (certainly if you have seen the average Humber then you'll know what I mean!), and anyway, someone could have repainted it themselves.

If all else fails, then you might have to contact the Vintage Cycle Club (VCC) and talk to one of their experts, or try to find more info in their online archive.

Good luck!

 

[Mad Doug Biker]

http://veterancycleclublibrary.org....on=search&searchtext=Raleigh&tpage=3&items=16

 

[Mad Doug Biker]

http://veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk/ncl/pics/Raleigh catalogue 1947-48 (V-CC Library).pdf

 

[Mickhigham]

Thats brilliant stuff thanks, I'd seen the 47 - 48 catalogue and inittially looking at that the bike looks like a Dawn model 11, apart from the gear shift which could obviously be incorrect anyway.

But... then looking at the 1940 catalogue, it seems a fair match for the Dawn Safety Model, including the gear shift. But then we have that P suffix to the serial number, but it has got one less digit in the serial than those shown in the dating charts.

What do you think? One thought I had was that in the 47 -48 catalogue drawing the tubes down to the rear wheel from the seat post look to be fixed to the side of the seat post and straight, and the catalogue states "entirely brazed up frame" while the tubes on mine are curved above the rear wheel and bolted to the rear of the seat post tube, which to my eye looks to be the case in the 1940 catalogue.

One other thing that may be definitive is that the '47 - 48 catalogue gives a frame size of 21", while the '40 catalogue gives a frame size of 22". Can someone tell me where to take this measurement? I presume it will be from the centre of the pedal crank to the very top of the seat post? but could be wrong.

Thanks again, now I'll go and confuse myself further by looking at some of the other catalogues I'm thinking it is the earlier bike now, so the black could have been for wartime use...who knows perhaps I'm clutching at straws there and someone just had a tin of black paint and no patience for putting it on neatly.

 

[wisdom]

Hope you get it working ok its nice for classics to be used.

 

[Mad Doug Biker]

I don't really know much more than yourself. I hope a Raleigh nut will be along soon, but if all else fails, contact the V-CC (Vintage Cycle Club), the owners of the links I provided.

You might need to join, but you will get access to experts who will be able to help.

 

[raleighnut]

Well its from before my era but looks like a good project to me try the V-CC as Mad Doug Biker suggests, they have a very good archive. Looks great for a 67odd year old bike though and very little chroming fits with wartime or just post-war economies.

 

[Mickhigham]

Thanks all, I'll have a look into the V-CC as suggested.
I don't think the bike will take much at all to make useable, tyres / tubes, front wheel bearings adjusted and just a general going over, though a couple of spokes don't have much tension but hopefully I can sort that.

Its going to be a laugh this isn't it, last time I was on a bicycle was back in 1995 with a lovely Raleigh Banana, I used to go all over on that and it was carried down the three floors from my flat every morning to go to work, then back up the stairs again at night. I was about 5 stone lighter and no dodgy ticker trouble.

Now, what a sight it will be watching some fat bloke wobble up the lane on this ancient womans push bike, good job its a low population area, then again in a place like this everyone knows who you are anyway. Ah well, they think I'm eccentric anyway, might as well go the whole hog. Though a nice old "racer" might be good to find as well if I really catch the bug again, there are some lovely single track roads to ride around here.

Back to what matters, what are the thoughts on fixing up, preservation, or restoration? I was thinking it might be nice just to sort the basics and clean then wipe over regularly with an oily rag, but, given the largely black colour scheme possibly has a reason, it would be easy to tidy up further following the same theme, but that removes the history somewhat.

So, do we have a general consensus of right and wrong when it comes to something like this?

 

[Mad Doug Biker]

To be honest, its down to you, yes, people might go on about the original patina and all that, but unless there is some very good reason, like provenance to a historic figure, event or similar, it isn't much help if the bike genuinely needs tidying up!

If you need to restore, restore! There are very few things out there that will be historic enough to be kept in absolutely original condition anyway.

 

[rhm]

Looks pretty early to me, with the decal head badge rather than a metal one, but I'm no expert on early Raleighs.

Let's go back to the rear hub. Do you see a model designation, such as AW? if so, there might be a single digit after that. 1939-40 the date was indicated by a single digit, so 9=1939, 0=1940. I have seen these myself. I believe this practice started in 1936 or 1937 but have not seen such dates myself. Nor do I know when it ended; by 1947 they used two digit codes, where 47 = 1947 and so on. If the model is K, then the bike dates to the 30's or even earlier.

Raleigh was closely affiliated with Sturmey Archer; I don't know the details. But I'm sure Raleigh had access to the newest Sturmey Archer parts. By the later 40's they were using a trigger shifter on the handlebar; so I have little doubt your bike is no later than the early 40's.

 

[Mickhigham]

All good stuff thank you, The hub is stamped AM but no numbers on it either after the model designation or anywhere else that I can find. Just "Patent Applied For".

Thanks again Chaps.

 

[rhm]

Well, that's pretty good. An AM hub --medium range, three speed-- is a rather scarce and highly regarded hub, much more interesting than an AW wide range three speed. I would assume yours, since there is no date, is a very early one. I'm not sure exactly when the AM came out; but it was for sale bty 1938:
http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.com/images/photos/pic-453.jpg