Offence of Dangerous Driving

[Drago]

Had the chap parked his car there we may have the offence of leaving a vehicle in a dangerous position. However, the same rules apply as described my myself above to other road users, and we shouldn't be driving or riding blind at a speed that would not allow us to stop at within the distance we can see to be clear.

We have a duty of care to ourselves as well as other road users, and just because someone else isn't exercising due care doesn't negate the requirement for us to do so.

A person drives dangerously when:
i) the way they drive falls far below the minimum acceptable standard expected of a competent and careful driver; and
ii) it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/dangerous_driving/

I've highlighted the word that thee CPS place enormous importance upon. Unfortunately, the definition above applies equally to people encountering blind corners.

 

[NickNick]

Had the chap parked his car there we may have the offence of leaving a vehicle in a dangerous position. However, the same rules apply as described my myself above to other road users, and we shouldn't be driving blind at a speed that would not allow us to stop at within the distance we can see to be clear.

We have a duty of care to ourselves as well as other road users, and just because someone else isn't exercising due care doesn't negate the requirement for us to do so.

Yep, that could equally have been a mother with a pram, an elderly person, small child... crossing the road at that point which would not have had a pretty ending!

 

[jefmcg]

I apply a rule I read somewhere

• Always cycle (or drive) as if a refrigerator has fallen off the back of a truck just out of sight around the next corner.

 

[I like Skol]

I apply a rule I read somewhere

• Always cycle (or drive) as if a refrigerator has fallen off the back of a truck just out of sight around the next corner.

I am an enthusiastic cyclist/driver and use a similar maxim to the above.... 'What if I meet myself coming the other way?' It certainly makes me slow down when driving on twisty single track country lanes!

 

[brucers]

Depends on the road width, Shirley?

Hence 'on the face of it' plus it was a driveway so more likely single lane.

 

[vickster]

From my considerable experience investigating such matters, going from the brief scenario described I would suggest it wouldn't meet the threshold test for DD. As the aggrieved and the witness the first thing CPS will do will be to examine your actions to establish that you did nothing to contribute to the outcome, and that you are credible as a witness. You will, sadly, fall at then first hurdle as you failed to exercise due caution on a blind corner, and failed in your duty to ride at a speed which would allow you to stop in the distance you can actually see to be clear.

There may be a slim case for knocking off the driver of car 1 for careless, but your riding would likely meet the same criteria, undermining your credibility as a witness and apportioning a degree of culpability to you, therefore it wouldn't meet the public interest test.

Suck it up, screw the insurers for every penny instead, and take more care when you can't see what's ahead. Good luck.

Why if the OP is equally culpable as you suggest ?

Fair enough if the motorist has accepted full liability which isn’t stated (has the OP engaged a solicitor to pursue for personal injury as well as seeking police action?)

 

[DCLane]

Hence 'on the face of it' plus it was a driveway so more likely single lane.

I know the Op here (or at least I know a Nick who's recently had an accident on a RH bend with a car breaking his clavicle so it's a good guess I do). The road's quite wide and a main road but with a series of blind turns and high walls.

What I'm not is clued up on the stuff he's asking about so not commenting.

 

[brucers]

I know the Op here (or at least I know a Nick who's recently had an accident on a RH bend with a car breaking his clavicle so it's a good guess). The road's quite wide and a main road but with a series of blind turns and high walls.

What I'm not is clued up on the stuff he's asking about so not commenting.

It's all food for thought and can help give a clearer insight. Sometimes accidents are just that with no fault.

 

[nick boardman]

Has anybody been involved in an incident where the vehicle driver has been charged with ' Dangerous Driving ' ?

I was cycling around a blind corner and hit a car turning right out of his driveway causing a broken collar bone. The police have indicated ' No Further Action ' , but in my opinion the circumstances fit the criteria and CPS guidelines for the offence of Dangerous Driving. By choosing to turn right the driver carried out a dangerous manoeuvre - he took a chance as he couldn't see around the blind bend - instead of simply turning left on the straight road and then turning around about 100 metres away. Of course this would have added 30 seconds to his journey time and his time is more important than a life ( apologies for the sarcasm ).

I'm going to appeal the police inaction so any stated cases or knowledge of incidents where Dangerous Driving was charged would be gratefully received.

Update. Thanks for the replies, although nobody has actually related any stated cases or specific incidents, some of the comments are interesting. My overwhelming sense of all this and having researched cases on the internet, many involving death or life changing injuries to cyclists, is that the majority of Police do not treat these incidents with the seriousness they deserve, and that is reflected in many of the comments looking at the culpability of the cyclist ( vulnerable road user ) rather than the motorist. That mindset will need to change or the carnage will continue.

In my case, the driveway from which the car emerged was about 5 metres from the corner . The driver had a choice - he could turn right uphill and ' chance it ' as he couldn't see around the bend or he could turn left downhill and turnaround about 100 metres down the straight road - the safer option. I wasn't going fast - about 15 miles an hour and not pedalling as it was downhill and a tight corner. I was immediately confronted with a Range Rover straddling both carriageways , braked hard but had nowhere to go in the short distance but luckily managed to steer so I hit it more side on than head on , which would have been more serious.

In my opinion and I would say from a commonsense viewpoint, the driver chose to carry out a dangerous ( and unnecessary ) manoeuvre. My actions did not contribute to the collision. If he hadn't been there I wouldn't have hit him. In fact, what he seemed most worried about afterwards was moving his precious Range Rover as it was in a ' dangerous position ' !

I am aware of all the legal definitions relating to Dangerous Driving such as ' falls far below ........etc ' . The CPS also include the following in their guidelines - ' Failing to have a proper and safe regard for vulnerable road users such as .......... cyclists ........ and when in the vicinity of a ........ school ' . It was near a school with 2 'School' signs fixed to telegraph poles near the driveway. CPS guidelines also state - ' It is not necessary to consider what the driver thought about the possible consequences of his actions: simply whether or not a competent and careful driver would have observed, appreciated and guarded against obvious and material dangers '.

The Police Officer who saw me ( 2 weeks later ) told me they were taking ' no action '. I expressed my concern that the same thing could happen to somebody else with graver consequences to which he replied - ' It shouldn't , as I have advised him to always turn left ' !

 

[NickNick]

In my opinion and I would say from a commonsense viewpoint, the driver chose to carry out a dangerous ( and unnecessary ) manoeuvre. My actions did not contribute to the collision. If he hadn't been there I wouldn't have hit him. In fact, what he seemed most worried about afterwards was moving his precious Range Rover as it was in a ' dangerous position ' !

You should always be going slowly enough to be able to stop in the distance that you have visible, whilst in this instance you were the vulnerable road user, that could have been a walking bus of school kids crossing the road, a parent with a pram, someone in a wheel chair and although you might have been able to manoeuvre around them, you equally could have hit them if anything went wrong with said manoeuvre.

Equally there could have been a que of traffic just around that blind bend, you would have ended up either in the back of a car (which you would be liable for, as the person rearending another is pretty much always guaranteed to be) or you would have had to cross on the wrong side of the road.

 

[NickNick]

Forgot to add, the other way to look at the situation is what if that had been a cyclist turning right out of that driveway and instead of you coming round the blind bend on a bike it had been a car driver going at the same speed. Surely the bulk of the blame would go to the car driver for having driven too fast to be able to stop in time, irrespective of whether or not the cyclist could have done a safer left turn?

 

[mjr]

Update. Thanks for the replies, although nobody has actually related any stated cases or specific incidents, some of the comments are interesting.

This site covers two years of cyclist deaths and lists only one driver being charged: https://beyondthekerbcasebook.wordpress.com/tag/charge-causing-death-by-dangerous-driving/

There doesn't seem to be any way to search the later version https://beyondthekerb.org.uk/casebook/ by charge.

I agree broadly with this comment:

My overwhelming sense of all this and having researched cases on the internet, many involving death or life changing injuries to cyclists, is that the majority of Police do not treat these incidents with the seriousness they deserve, and that is reflected in many of the comments looking at the culpability of the cyclist ( vulnerable road user ) rather than the motorist. That mindset will need to change or the carnage will continue.

...but I remain of the opinion that the driver you encountered was more careless than dangerous.

 

[I like Skol]

Update. Thanks for the replies, although nobody has actually related any stated cases or specific incidents, some of the comments are interesting. My overwhelming sense of all this and having researched cases on the internet, many involving death or life changing injuries to cyclists, is that the majority of Police do not treat these incidents with the seriousness they deserve, and that is reflected in many of the comments looking at the culpability of the cyclist ( vulnerable road user ) rather than the motorist. That mindset will need to change or the carnage will continue.

In my case, the driveway from which the car emerged was about 5 metres from the corner . The driver had a choice - he could turn right uphill and ' chance it ' as he couldn't see around the bend or he could turn left downhill and turnaround about 100 metres down the straight road - the safer option. I wasn't going fast - about 15 miles an hour and not pedalling as it was downhill and a tight corner. I was immediately confronted with a Range Rover straddling both carriageways , braked hard but had nowhere to go in the short distance but luckily managed to steer so I hit it more side on than head on , which would have been more serious.

In my opinion and I would say from a commonsense viewpoint, the driver chose to carry out a dangerous ( and unnecessary ) manoeuvre. My actions did not contribute to the collision. If he hadn't been there I wouldn't have hit him. In fact, what he seemed most worried about afterwards was moving his precious Range Rover as it was in a ' dangerous position ' !

I am aware of all the legal definitions relating to Dangerous Driving such as ' falls far below ........etc ' . The CPS also include the following in their guidelines - ' Failing to have a proper and safe regard for vulnerable road users such as .......... cyclists ........ and when in the vicinity of a ........ school ' . It was near a school with 2 'School' signs fixed to telegraph poles near the driveway. CPS guidelines also state - ' It is not necessary to consider what the driver thought about the possible consequences of his actions: simply whether or not a competent and careful driver would have observed, appreciated and guarded against obvious and material dangers '.

The Police Officer who saw me ( 2 weeks later ) told me they were taking ' no action '. I expressed my concern that the same thing could happen to somebody else with graver consequences to which he replied - ' It shouldn't , as I have advised him to always turn left ' !

Let this one go Nick. I know you are not getting what you want to hear but neither your initial description of the incident or this later, more biased account suggests anything other than the fact YOU were going too fast.

I was immediately confronted with a Range Rover straddling both carriageways , braked hard but had nowhere to go in the short distance but luckily managed to steer so I hit it more side on than head on , which would have been more serious.

In my opinion and I would say from a commonsense viewpoint, the driver chose to carry out a dangerous ( and unnecessary ) manoeuvre. My actions did not contribute to the collision. If he hadn't been there I wouldn't have hit him. In fact, what he seemed most worried about afterwards was moving his precious Range Rover as it was in a ' dangerous position ' !

I know you are expecting to whip up some anti-4x4 feeling here but the make and type of car is also irrelevant and without being there it sounds as though you would have hit him regardless of his turning left or right. As has also been pointed out, it could equally have been a queue of traffic, a stalled/broken down vehicle or any number of other obstructions not visible around a blind corner. You were going too fast to stop in the road you could see to be clear!
I'm not surprised he was anxious to move his vehicle, some loon might come flying around the corner and seriously injure themselves at any moment.

You also raise the point that this was a signposted 'school' area. If that is the case what the hell where you doing hooning around a tight downhill blind corner at 15mph? Did it never cross your mind that there could be children in the road?

The final line from your account that prevents me from taking your commonsense viewpoint as anything other than the deluded ramblings of someone incapable of accepting responsibility for their own mistakes is when you claim 'If he hadn't been there I wouldn't have hit him.' Really, this claim is so tragic it isn't even funny and I dread to think that I have to share the roads with people like you.

 

[nick boardman]

I would agree with this bit but the fact remains that, in the particular circumstances you describe, you were at fault. This may seem harsh but you were going faster than you were able to stop given the road conditions.

@NickNick makes a very salient point:

So no fault apportioned to the driver then ? !

 

[nick boardman]

Let this one go Nick. I know you are not getting what you want to hear but neither your initial description of the incident or this later, more biased account suggests anything other than the fact YOU were going too fast.

I know you are expecting to whip up some anti-4x4 feeling here but the make and type of car is also irrelevant and without being there it sounds as though you would have hit him regardless of his turning left or right. As has also been pointed out, it could equally have been a queue of traffic, a stalled/broken down vehicle or any number of other obstructions not visible around a blind corner. You were going too fast to stop in the road you could see to be clear!
I'm not surprised he was anxious to move his vehicle, some loon might come flying around the corner and seriously injure themselves at any moment.

You also raise the point that this was a signposted 'school' area. If that is the case what the hell where you doing hooning around a tight downhill blind corner at 15mph? Did it never cross your mind that there could be children in the road?

The final line from your account that prevents me from taking your commonsense viewpoint as anything other than the deluded ramblings of someone incapable of accepting responsibility for their own mistakes is when you claim 'If he hadn't been there I wouldn't have hit him.' Really, this claim is so tragic it isn't even funny and I dread to think that I have to share the roads with people like you.

It's not a more biased account , these are the facts with more information as some of the replies were based upon assumptions. If you are a cyclist ( are you ? ) you would know that 15mph isn't ' hooning ' when going downhill in a 30mph zone. And I wouldn't have hit him if he hadn't been carrying out a 'dangerous manoeuvre ' . All your other ' If , buts and maybe's ' are not relevant . As Columbo used to say ' Let's stick to the facts ' .