Opinions please! - Yet another German expedition

[Arch]

Found it!

http://www.mark-ju.n...iette/meths.htm

scroll down a bit for german.

 

[TwoInTow]

I hope it all goes wonderfully - I remember how you salvaged a brilliant trip last time.

Yes, it really was brilliant! And thrown together 5 days beforehand... makes me wonder why I'm fussing around now six months ahead of time!!

You're a gem for finding that page. Thanks.

 

[snorri]

I remember there's a bit in the guidebook where it says that part of the route gets hilly, so consider taking a ferry for about 5Km instead - perhaps that's what snorri was remembering?

The bits I was trying to describe were covered better by Andy in Sig, the ferry section comes later. The Bikeline book recomends the ferry trip which is really quite spectacular through a gorge to Kelheim.

 

[Andy in Sig]

Even better! I'm thinking 50-60Km per day should be do-able on average, and am expecting less than that at the beginning and on that bumpy stretch, but perhaps a bit more than that towards the end as it gets flatter and we get fitter. I'm going to take the little one on her first tour in April - at least, the first on her own bike - which should let me gauge it better. And I'll probably put my mother on the tandem with my husband, so they'll even out a bit.

Is 'Burg' = 'Berg' (as it is on my Bikeline map)? Looks like it... I'm marking your suggestion on my map now. I would welcome any tips you have about anything, really. Off the top of my head, things like:
- Are there campsites not on the Bikeline maps? Where's the best place to research them beforehand? Can't have too many back-up plans with small children!
- Is the tourist office in each town a place where you can find out about camping sites and maybe book ahead for that night?
- What kind of shop in Germany would sell methylated spirits for our Trangia? Wie heisst 'meths' auf Deutsch?
- Are there other areas of the route where you would recommend a deviation?

Yes, you're right: it's Berg. If you look at the map on p51 (at least in my edition) you follow the bike route to the main road (B465). Cross over the road onto the bike path on the other side and turn right and go over the river. As you approach Berg you see a street running parallel to the main road (the map seems to predate this) Get on this and follow the swing round to the left into Berg. At the T-jct turn left and go up the hill. You're now on the K7355 leading to Nasgenstadt and are rewarded with a long, fast downhill to that village and you will have saved a lot of effort which you would have expended going through Ehingen. Thereafter it is as flat as a pancake to Ulm.

Campsites:

Donaueschingen (nearer Pfohren actually)
There is a "free cyclists campsite" marked just east of Immendingen. I've never noticed this but I'll check it out next time I do the route, although it is probably far too close to Donaueschingen for you to want to use it.
The next one is Hausen im Tal.

I would recommend something like Donaueschingen to Möhringen for your first day and staying at a B&B in the latter (which shouldn't work out too much dearer than a campsite especially when you consider that the price includes breakfast) then the next day go on to the campsite at Hausen, then to the campsite at Sigmaringen.

The problem is that campsites are a bit thin on the ground. Your next stops could perhaps be the site at Munderkingen and then be prepared to either do a hotel stop in Ulm or push on to Günzburg.

The ADAC (German AA) does a campsite guide which covers and rates all the sites in the country. Yes the tourist info offices will have all the info you need. Nearly every German town has its own website with loads of info on it. Just type in www.townname.de or google the town name.

The Blaubeuron variation between Ehingen and Ulm is great particularly in Blaubeuron where you get to see a whole river just emerging from a hole in the ground. However, I am aware of no campsites on that leg.

 

[Brains]

Now, I've checked out every single option that has been put forward, but everything so far involves many, many train changes. For instance, taking the ferry would not only be 3 changes of train to get to Harwich, but anything from 4 to 8 changes to get from Hook of Holland to the startpoint. The ferry and trains would take about 30+ hours of travelling - and if I try to do the ferry overnight, I have to book a cabin etc etc. It's going to be 3-5 times the price of going by plane.

Ferry overnight is not as expensive as it sounds, as it saves you a night somewhere else and the ship is a great way to start a holiday (you could also leave the car at Harwich)

Also you could look at Dover/Calais and then train to the start
Get a mate to drive a rented van to Dover to drop you all off (or if any of your kids are members of the Scouts, ask them...)

The same goes, unfortunately, for the Bike Express. It's 3 train changes for us just to get to the pick-up point. If we get off at Thionville or Nancy it's at least 4 changes to Donaueschingen... And it's slower and more expensive. As someone said above, with so many bikes and people, any route is daunting; and the children do find travelling tiring, especially if it's overnight. I think it would be different if it were 5 active adults, each of which can be entirely responsible for their own kit. But really, it's 2 active adults, another helpful but less active one, and 2 willing kids.

One change to Bike express start. Southampton to London Waterloo. London Waterloo to Gravesend.

I still think any option is better than the plane. I used to do a lot of European business travel, including working for a while in Paris.
I found that the actual door to door time by plane is often slower than the train, and the train really does take the strain.

 

[TwoInTow]

Well, you're starting to talk me round, Brains... I was skeptical but then I sat down to do a detailed itinerary and costing, and I think you may well be right. The plane does seem a little cheaper, but not by much, and while there would be fewer train changes, that would be balanced by having to dismantle and assemble the bikes, and also a hotel stay on the way which would require getting the bikes and luggage to and from the hotel and in and out of rooms/parking etc.

Plus, I'm still trying to find a way to hire a bike for my mum. Your way, it would be easier to take an extra bike for her... The really big thing that I find sooooo stressful, is standing there wondering whether you will be able to make it at all, because you're not sure if they will load your bike onto the plane/allow you to load a tandem onto the train etc. I think problems with the plane are more likely than the train. And clicking around last night on CGOAB, I found a family that travelled with TWO of our tandems and a trailer on German and Swiss trains without any problem... so that is easing my concern a bit.

The one puzzling bit that will take some thought is a van... no car/van hire in Harwich, and no mates who would drive one to and from for us. Plus some thought for where to leave the car safely for 2 weeks...

<<goes back to drawing board>>

PS Andy - thanks for that detail. Will get the map out, make some notes, and start planning!

 

[Ticktockmy]

The trouble in the early stages off planning a tour, is that you cannot see the wood for the trees, but as you know from your last tour and its last minute change of plan, it all falls in place one brick at a time, its the confusen that I find is all part of planning can be most enjoyable, at least on here there is plenty of peeps willing to give good advice.. personally i think I would opt forthe ferry train opitions, more fun for the kids and mum, but will drive you mad, i think.

 

[Andy in Sig]

Well, you're starting to talk me round, Brains... I was skeptical but then I sat down to do a detailed itinerary and costing, and I think you may well be right. The plane does seem a little cheaper, but not by much, and while there would be fewer train changes, that would be balanced by having to dismantle and assemble the bikes, and also a hotel stay on the way which would require getting the bikes and luggage to and from the hotel and in and out of rooms/parking etc.

Plus, I'm still trying to find a way to hire a bike for my mum. Your way, it would be easier to take an extra bike for her... The really big thing that I find sooooo stressful, is standing there wondering whether you will be able to make it at all, because you're not sure if they will load your bike onto the plane/allow you to load a tandem onto the train etc. I think problems with the plane are more likely than the train. And clicking around last night on CGOAB, I found a family that travelled with TWO of our tandems and a trailer on German and Swiss trains without any problem... so that is easing my concern a bit.

The one puzzling bit that will take some thought is a van... no car/van hire in Harwich, and no mates who would drive one to and from for us. Plus some thought for where to leave the car safely for 2 weeks...

<<goes back to drawing board>>

PS Andy - thanks for that detail. Will get the map out, make some notes, and start planning!

If I remember aright there is (or at least used to be) a train that runs in the summer from Hamburg to Donaueschingen. If you can get to the Hook of Holland you should be able to get a train to Duisburg or Düsseldorf and pick up the Donaueschingen train from there. Reserving space for the bikes on the latter is a must. I'll try and find out if it is running this year.

Edit: Just checked e.g. On Sat 2nd Jul you can get the 09:34 from Duisburg direct to Donaueschingen. Most other departures involve one change. You must book 92 days in advance (lots of cyclists go to Donaueschingen).

 

[Arch]

The one puzzling bit that will take some thought is a van... no car/van hire in Harwich, and no mates who would drive one to and from for us. Plus some thought for where to leave the car safely for 2 weeks...

Some thoughts, for what they are worth.

I seem to remember you are in or near Winchester? You need the van to get the bikes from there to Harwich (and then back again) We have a fair few folk on this forum who are in that area. Why not post in Cafe, and ask if anyone would be prepared to help out. You never know, for a few quid, someone might fancy the drive. I'd offer to help myself (I have a sister and family down there, so can always find an excuse to visit), but I'd be unlikely to be able to help at both ends of the trip. But bear it in mind, if you find someone else who can help with one end only.

Another alternative, some friends of mine needed to get from Norfolk to Portsmouth last summer for our tour, with two recumbent trikes (and space for a third if I'd needed it). They found a local taxi company who had a minibus, with removeable seats, leaving room for the trikes, and passengers. Yes, it was pricy, but trains were impossible, and one way hire of a van even more expensive.

As to where to leave the car... On the same trip, I got a lift down with another friend, and on the recommendation of yet another, we'd booked the car in at a tiny campsite - one registered with the Camping and Caravanning Site. The chap charged us a tenner for two weeks parking (actually, we gave him 20, and it would have been something like £160 at the port). It was only in a field, in a hamlet about 10 miles north of Portsmouth, and we rode to the port from there. But it was safe enough, being so rural (it took us about 3 goes to find the place!), and it was a site with a couple of long term caravan residents. It might be worth looking to see if there's anything local and ringing round to see if anyone would be prepared to mind the car for a couple of weeks for a small fee.

http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/

I hope that lot doesn't muddy the waters too much!

 

[Arch]

I would recommend something like Donaueschingen to Möhringen for your first day and staying at a B&B in the latter (which shouldn't work out too much dearer than a campsite especially when you consider that the price includes breakfast) then the next day go on to the campsite at Hausen, then to the campsite at Sigmaringen.

The problem is that campsites are a bit thin on the ground. Your next stops could perhaps be the site at Munderkingen and then be prepared to either do a hotel stop in Ulm or push on to Günzburg.

After a few days under canvas, a hotel stop is a good idea I think - gives one a chance to stretch a bit in a real bed and so on. I've read a lot of recommendations to have a hotel or hostel stop every few days, or once a week.

Oh, another van thought. Most places have people running little 'man and a van' type companies. A delivery of the bikes to the port might not be too expensive, and you could also arrange to be met at the end of the trip.

 

[Andy in Sig]

I work on a basis that three nights of campsites "earn" me a night in a hotel. When the weather is good I bank the hotel days for when it rains.

 

[Brains]

"Man and Van" as stated above could be one option with one or two people going with all luggage and bikes to the port and the rest by train
or make a call to one of the local 'airport runs' companies as they often use mini busses towing a trailer.

The other big users of minibusses with trailers are youth groups such as Scouts, Schools and the Churches.
They are always on the lookout to make a few quid, you just have to find the right one at the right price
(Also it's a donation to the group, not hire and reward)

Re routes - Have you looked at the option of Southampton/Le Havre ferry then train to Paris, Stasbourg and then onwards from there ?

 

[TwoInTow]

Re routes - Have you looked at the option of Southampton/Le Havre ferry then train to Paris, Stasbourg and then onwards from there ?

Leaving from Southampton is much better for us, but I haven't looked at it too seriously. The thing putting me off is the French train system. Much harder to look stuff up online. But more importantly, they don't give the impression of being very cycle-friendly. For instance, this is the only information I can find about taking bikes:

<LI>Can I bring my bike on board?

Sometimes. Normally, it must be boxed and placed in a separate car, or it might have to be transported on a separate train. Extra charges may apply, and you must arrange bike transport locally. Bikes are allowed as checked luggage on the EC, IC, ICE, and TGV trains. The bike must be wrapped, with the wheels and pedals detached, and the handlebars parallel to the frame.

That's quite unappealing, for obvious reasons. And while I've found CGOAB Journals from a couple that travelled throughout Germany and Switzerland with two tandems and no trouble, I haven't found similar stories about French rail - only ominous warnings that they won't take tandems at all. Ours is a Hase Pino, so only about 25cm longer than a normal adult frame, but we have found that a problem on Cross-Country trains here in the UK where the hooks aren't high enough for hanging. I just don't want to be agonising on the platform about whether the guard is going to be nice and let us on - not with kids in tow.

Does anyone have any experience with French rail? The price is comparable and journey is comparable in this case, and getting to the start point is much easier. But I don't want to be turned off the train!

Edit: Just checked LDLines ferries, and they say 'no more than 2 passengers can book with a bicycle'. What the...? How can that make sense?!!

 

[willem]

Brennspiritus is the word.
Willem

 

[Brains]

Ferries only taking 2 bikes !?! - Sorry I'm in the shipbroking business, that fails to pass the logic test. I'd try making a booking for all the people and all the bikes and see what happens, the serries have more than enough space for bikes (motor or cycle)

Otherwise you become foot passengers with a large wheeled box !

As for bikes on French trains, I have heard of issues taking bikes on the TGV's but the local trains are usually OK, they often have bike symbols on them and tell you where to stand to load. I've only even done it a couple of times, both with only two bikes, but was no problem