'Police the roads, not the pavements'.

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Crankarm

Guru
Location
Nr Cambridge
theclaud said:
This is truly barking, Crankarm! Some of us commute daily, a lot of us in London. It can be a bit hairy, but it's hardly Gallipoli. The CTC's entirely sensible point is that it's better for your life expectancy to cycle than not to cycle, and that not only does it get safer because people see more cyclists on the road, but because everyone who is on a bike instead of behind the wheel of a car is thereby rendered harmless. Your anti-CTC thing is beginning to sound like a grudge. Is there something you're not telling us?

:thumbsup:
 
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stoptherock

New Member
Crankarm, you're wrong.

Encouraging cycling produces a 'virtuous circle' of safer roads.

First World War analogies are stupid and offensive, the health benefits of cycling outweigh the risks by a factor of 8 to one.
 
>> I don't have a problem with it except that cycling facilities in the UK are totally inadequate for this at this current time.


eh?

the only facility I need is a frame with two wheels, a saddle, a seat attached, some transmission and some steering.
 

Crankarm

Guru
Location
Nr Cambridge
stoptherock said:
Crankarm, you're wrong.

No, you're wrong :tongue:.

stoptherock said:
Encouraging cycling produces a 'virtuous circle' of safer roads.

Uhh? :tongue:

stoptherock said:
First World War analogies are stupid and offensive,

Nope, I don't think so. You obviously haven't grasped the point I have made. It's the mentality of such a policy/strategy.


stoptherock said:
the health benefits of cycling outweigh the risks by a factor of 8 to one.

Which is a totally different issue. The factor 8:1 you have quoted I doubt you could ever substantiate as there are so many variables :thumbsup:.
 

John the Monkey

Frivolous Cyclist
Location
Crewe
magnatom said:
I'm playing devils advocate here. I'm a motorist. I hate seeing cyclists jumping through red light. Lycra louts the lot of them.
I seem to recall a recent study in Australia showing that bad behaviour by other motorists leads the driver seeing it to think the badly behaving motorist is a ****. Bad behaviour by cyclists leads the motorist to believe that *all* cyclists are ****.

I guess the question to ask is whether the observing motorist is responsible for that perception, or the poorly behaving cyclists.
 

Crankarm

Guru
Location
Nr Cambridge
ed_o_brain said:
>> I don't have a problem with it except that cycling facilities in the UK are totally inadequate for this at this current time.


eh?

the only facility I need is a frame with two wheels, a saddle, a seat attached, some transmission and some steering.

+1, which on this revelation means I am going to go and ride my bike

:thumbsup:.
 
John the Monkey said:
I seem to recall a recent study in Australia showing that bad behaviour by other motorists leads the driver seeing it to think the badly behaving motorist is a ****. Bad behaviour by cyclists leads the motorist to believe that *all* cyclists are ****.

I guess the question to ask is whether the observing motorist is responsible for that perception, or the poorly behaving cyclists.


That would make sense as I know some research has looked at the 'tribal' aspects of driver/cyclist interaction. Bentmikey used to be the authority on this.:thumbsup:

It may well be the drivers fault for this perception, but if we have to work with what we have, so we need to be seen to be keeping the house in order.

User, I hope you haven't taken any of this personally!?:tongue:
 
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stoptherock

New Member
Crankarm said:
No, you're wrong :tongue:.



Uhh? :tongue:



Nope, I don't think so. You obviously haven't grasped the point I have made. It's the mentality of such a policy/strategy.




Which is a totally different issue. The factor 8:1 you have quoted I doubt you could ever substantiate as there are so many variables :thumbsup:.


1/
A virtuous cycle: safety in numbers for riders says research
By Dan Gaffney
September 3, 2008
The likelihood that an individual cyclist will be struck by a motorist falls with increasing rate of bicycling in a community.
It seems paradoxical but the more people ride bicycles on our city streets, the less likely they are to be injured in traffic accidents, say injury experts who will speak at a forthcoming cycling safety seminar in Sydney.




http://www.science.unsw.edu.au/news/a-virtuous-cycle-safety-in-numbers-for-riders-says-research/



  • That the number of people dying annually of heart disease due to physical inactivity (c42,000[1]), and from obesity (c30,000[2]) both massively outweigh those who die while cycling (c130[3]), let alone those whose deaths result from head injuries which a helmet might have prevented, even on the most optimistic assumptions about their effectiveness (n.b. motor vehicles are involved in around 90% of cyclists’ fatal and serious injuries[4], whereas helmets are only designed for impact speeds equivalent to falling from a stationary riding position[5]);
  • That those who cycle into middle adulthood can have a level of fitness equivalent to being 10 years younger[6] and a life-expectancy 2 years above the average[7];
  • That, thanks to these extra life-years, the health benefits of cycling far outweigh the risks[8] – by a factor of 20:1 according to one calculation[9];

[8] British Medical Association. Cycling: towards health and safety. Oxford University Press, 1992.
[9] Hillman M, Cycling and the promotion of health. PTRC 20th Summer Annual Meeting, Proceedings of Seminar B, pp 25-36, 1992.


With these facts in mind, the mentality of encouraging cycling is clear- it saves lives, and makes the roads safer.


Your opinion on cycling dangers carries as much weight as your knowledge of film quotes.
 
User said:
Not at all... you bast@rd!



:thumbsup:


:tongue:

Personally, I'd love to have the time to help the CTC. Maybe one day after the kids have grown up, I've sold my house/bought a house, retired, convinced all of the family to live closer, convinced my wife to come cycling with me etc then maybe, just maybe I can do some work for the CTC.


They do say we will be working into our 80's....:tongue::tongue:
 

John the Monkey

Frivolous Cyclist
Location
Crewe
magnatom said:
That would make sense as I know some research has looked at the 'tribal' aspects of driver/cyclist interaction. Bentmikey used to be the authority on this.:wacko:

It may well be the drivers fault for this perception, but if we have to work with what we have, so we need to be seen to be keeping the house in order.
The guy who did the study is interviewed here;
http://www.yarrabug.org/radio/?p=359#more-359

(Starts about 2:20)
 
Well, for some reason I'm having trouble posting - but here is what I wrote earlier. It might serve some purpose - muddy the waters/show my colours/piss in the wind.

Crankarm said:
Simply encouraging more cyclists to cycle without pushing hard for improving facilities and strenghtening the law and enforcement is just going to increase the numbers seriously injured or killed.

It may seem like putting the cart before the horse but as with so many aspects of modern life a counter-intuitive, seemingly superficial solution may be the only sensible way to effect a change over the behaviour of the millions of people that commute each day. I think the CTC's campaign is probably the most direct route to improving cycling infrastructure and the individual cyclists position in law and society.

The larger the number of cyclists commuting the greater the political power we will carry to improve facilities. Also our voices will be louder and more clearly heard when we call for the enforcement of current law and new legislation.

A large increase in the number of cyclists on the road is also the most effective way of increasing other road users awareness of cyclists and thus our safety. I believe that even with the huge increase in cyclist numbers in London over recent years there has been an actual drop in the number of injuries, not just the injury rate. (I'm also aware that the relevant statistics can be cherry picked to show that since one specific year the situation has worsened.) An increase in cycling accompanied by a decrease in injuries has certainly been the case in other places around the world.

I think the policy of increasing the presence and numbers of cyclists on the roads does more for cyclists and reinforces itself and its purpose more than any other measure possibly could. Compare the Safety in Numbers campaign to the coordinated introduction of engineered and legislative solutions designed to benefit cyclists and others that rely on funding to construct, funding to maintain, funding to enforce, political and public will to construct, maintain and enforce, that also rely on intelligent implementation and a reliance on road users behaving in a reliably consistent and predictable manner* and I would say the chances of a positive, effective result lie with the CTC's current stategy.

*I have always found the drivers of south London to be incredibly ingenious at finding ways of negating such benefits -
enforcement of bus lanes = more left hooks from lanes 2 + 3
traffic calming to lower speeds on the carriageway = drive on the pavement
traffic cameras = unregistered pool car
ANPR systems = cloned car
 
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stoptherock

New Member
''I believe that even with the huge increase in cyclist numbers in London over recent years there has been an actual drop in the number of injuries, not just the injury rate.''

crankarm is wrong, you are correct:


Cycle journeys in the capital have risen by 100 per cent since 2000 and have met the Mayor Ken Livingstone's cycling targets five years early.

http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_release.jsp?releaseid=5944

So a doubling in eight years.

And the accident rate?

In cities where cycling levels are very buoyant such as York and London, cycling is getting safer. Cycling in London has doubled in 5 years, and the numbers killed have dropped by almost 50 per cent since the mid-90s.

A statement from CTC said: "It is important not to take single years in isolation as fluctuations can happen when small numbers are concerned. Since the mid 90s the number of cyclists who have been killed or seriously injured has fallen by 37 per cent - from 3,732 to 2,360 per year."

http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/news/19243/Adult-cyclist-fatalities-up-child-cyclist-fatalities-down
 
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