Possible solution to the lorry and cyclist problem at the lights

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downfader

extimus uero philosophus
Location
'ampsheeeer
Many of us have thought how useful to have a specific cycle-green at the lights. I know however that no one in office would ever spend the money on such a thing.

However the recent highlighting of the deaths and injuries involving cyclists and lorries got me seriously thinking. Could we allow cyclists segregation through time to navigate junctions safely away from motor vehicles, and do it cheaply?

So I thought, and thought until me brain ****ing hurt like a badger was trying to crawl his way out. Then the lightbulb came on - in amber. :tongue: There could be a solution where we adapt Boris' ideas for "advance on red" to an "advance on amber" and change the timing of the lights to allow cyclists a short grace of acceleration. I'm prolly not the first to have thought it, but it didnt stop me emailing the road safety team at the DfT to ask them to consider it.

I got an email tonight from them:

Your e-mail of 31 October concerning cycling issues has been passed to me for reply. You suggested that introducing an advanced green signal (I actually said AMBER but hey ho) for cyclists might help avoid conflict between cyclists and HGVs. We know that in the last year or so, there has been a spate of fatal HGV-related accidents with cyclists in the London area. What is not clear is how many took place at signalised junctions. However, returning to your suggestion, the Department is carrying out a traffic signs policy review, which was launched in September 2008. The review is considering changes to both the traffic sign system and the traffic management system that it supports, including traffic signals. We agree that whilst the use of sophisticated signalling systems and strategies have largely concentrated on benefits for motor-vehicular traffic, there has been less emphasis on the traffic signalling techniques for cyclists at junctions (something I reitterated to them in my email). This research project will seek to provide an integrated approach to the provision of safe cycling (with particular regard to road markings, traffic signs, signals and engineering infrastructure), with priority measures where appropriate, through the approaches to traffic signals and through the controls themselves.



This project will assist the review by gathering evidence on traffic management techniques used for cyclists in Great Britain and elsewhere with a view to informing possible trials of new techniques and to help inform future policy and regulatory changes.

I trust my response is helpful and I take this opportunity to thank you for the interest you have shown in road safety related matters.

Regards

Traffic Management Division

I think thats pretty cool. Obviously it takes more than once crank to turn the pedals of progress. :biggrin: So I will ask all who have ideas to please send them to the DfT, if they get the general idea from cyclists how we think we can aid our own safety by influencing traffic signals, signs and so on it might spur an influence on the research, and in turn have an effect of real world road safety.

(Obviously i would have posted this in Camp+P but this is as much a commuting matter as C+P so I was unsure)
 
It's an interesting idea, and in an ideal world would work. However, (and I am placing my grumpy old man hat on for this one), I can see a couple of problems.

Having early lights for cyclists will actuall encourage cyclists to filter to the front. This isn't always the best option, especially if there is an HGV to filter past. Ask yourself this, have you ever been at a set of lights where there is another set, either slightly further on, or to the side, where the other set changed and you found yourself reacting to the wrong lights? I know I have. Now imagine that there is a second green (or advanced amber) within the same set of lights. Folk will often set off at the wrong time, accidentally or intentionally! I just wonder if it is something that could lead to more conflict?

Taking my grumpy hat off....it is good to investigate ideas like this, and good to hear that someone actually is.

Personally I'd prefer changing the ASL to a zone a few cars back from the front that is reserved for cyclists....but that is for another day! :smile:
 

summerdays

Cycling in the sun
Location
Bristol
The problem I would see to advance on Amber is the amount of traffic still going through the lights from the other directions - at certain junctions I know even when it is green for me there will still be that last car or two (3 or certain junctions) going through on red from the other direction.

Presumably they would make the Amber phase slightly longer? Well we have junction locally (Zetland Road), where cyclists used to get 10/20 seconds on a green toucan crossing to join the road, before traffic got a green light. Now instead we have to "Merge" (cross each other) at the same time. And the reason given for it all was "it improves traffic flow with MINIMAL negative effects ... apart from for cyclists". If they aren't prepared to give us those few seconds at this complicated junction, then I can't see them doing it across the country.

Most cars also start going when the lights turn to Amber too.

I feel I'm being really negative to your suggestion and I don't want to be ... I would like it to work. It would be interesting if they could trial it at a couple of junctions (with lots of information signs obviously) and find out what the reaction from various road users would be, from pedestrians to lorry drivers.

Ask yourself this, have you ever been at a set of lights where there is another set, either slightly further on, or to the side, where the other set changed and you found yourself reacting to the wrong lights? I know I have. Now imagine that there is a second green (or advanced amber) within the same set of lights.
Yes me right in the centre of town is a set of lights I know I have to think hard which light to look at.
 

garrilla

Senior Member
Location
Liverpool
Surely the cheapest option is to allow cyclists to to turn left on red subject to giving way to traffic from the right. This would only need an information campaign?And a small change in the law and highway code.
 
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downfader

downfader

extimus uero philosophus
Location
'ampsheeeer
Big M, Summerdays... I think you've highlighted a problem with human nature (selfishness and impatience in all reality) that we currently have now. In all reality there should be more done to stop people running lights, even the amber gamblers and the "its only just changed" brigade.

With lorries it is exactly the problem with filtering to the front that can cause the conflict, we currently have that problem as it is - the message is still dont filter unless you know the lights timing. I think if cyclists knew they had a few seconds grace to get further out and perhaps be seen in the distance it might limit the chance of a driver going over them when they are already at the front (this has been suggested to have been the case with one or two cyclists in London).
 

jimboalee

New Member
Location
Solihull
I'm trying to dredge my memory.

I kinda recall ( I'll have to research ) there being junctions on Market Street in San Francisco where the bike lanes are phased seperately to the main carriageways.

Market St is the 'flat' way in to SF and goes all the way to the Embarcodero where there is a dead flat route all the way round to the Golden Gate Bridge gift shop. It is the chosen route for commute cyclists to get to the north side of town without gong up and down 20% hills.

I would say, the system could be advantageous on London's 'Cycle Superhighways'. :biggrin:
 

barongreenback

Über Member
Location
Warwickshire
As a novice commuter could someone explain to me the benefits of filtering to the front? If the lights are red, I'm quite content to sit 3/4 cars behind adopting a position so that I don't get cut off my someone turning left. Getting to the front would save me all of about 5 seconds by the time the lights change to green. Am I missing something fundamental? Unless there's a massive queue, I don't bother.
 

Banjo

Fuelled with Jelly Babies
Location
South Wales
As a novice commuter could someone explain to me the benefits of filtering to the front? If the lights are red, I'm quite content to sit 3/4 cars behind adopting a position so that I don't get cut off my someone turning left. Getting to the front would save me all of about 5 seconds by the time the lights change to green. Am I missing something fundamental? Unless there's a massive queue, I don't bother.

Idont bother if its only 3 or 4 cars, if its a halfmile que though its a different story.

At the risk of being flamed here I will admit to when turning left carefully starting off before the light changes provided i can see beyond doubt theres nothing coming . Maybe illegal but puts me ahead of the traffic and no chance of idiots overtaking me on the corner.
 
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downfader

downfader

extimus uero philosophus
Location
'ampsheeeer
As a novice commuter could someone explain to me the benefits of filtering to the front? If the lights are red, I'm quite content to sit 3/4 cars behind adopting a position so that I don't get cut off my someone turning left. Getting to the front would save me all of about 5 seconds by the time the lights change to green. Am I missing something fundamental? Unless there's a massive queue, I don't bother.


In an ideal world, or if you're a novice, yes that is best practice.

However there are times when there is heavy traffic congestion (many, many cars) and notoriously difficult junctions, even routes with ASLs that suffer from road users fighting for space as soon as it goes green. This is where I see cyclists struggling, and I have struggled myself even as a moderately strong, experienced and fit cyclist
 

steve52

I'm back! Yippeee
hgv saftey!!!! i take the veiw that they are evil things with one desire, that is to kill me, so i dont give them the chance. if it hurt to filter along side them cyclist wouldent do it, use you instincts guys and girls lets stay alive!!!
 

summerdays

Cycling in the sun
Location
Bristol
As a novice commuter could someone explain to me the benefits of filtering to the front? If the lights are red, I'm quite content to sit 3/4 cars behind adopting a position so that I don't get cut off my someone turning left. Getting to the front would save me all of about 5 seconds by the time the lights change to green. Am I missing something fundamental? Unless there's a massive queue, I don't bother.

For me it depends on the junction, but generally by filtering to the front it means when the lights change I can be across the junction before the cars are, so away from the area of conflict from turning vehicles because over the first few meters I can accelerate faster. Once I'm further back in the line, a gap may open between myself and the car in front and then if there is a car waiting to turn right they are sometimes tempted to squeeze through.

At one junction if I am not within about 60m of the front of the queue it changes to red before I get there (and no I'm not that slow) so I will always filter until I'm at least in that zone if it is safe. It is a case of getting to know your junctions, the timings and sequence of light changes, which ones seem to generate more negative cycle/car interactions etc. I was cycling with a colleague last week and she filtered forward a couple of times when I didn't, because in each case I weighed up the situation and thought I was better where I was in the queue, so there are probably definite rules other than the don't filter past a lorry at a junction.
 

Fab Foodie

hanging-on in quiet desperation ...
Location
Kirton, Devon.
Instead of relying on lights which are visual to everybody, why not signal the advanced period for cyclists to move-off before cars by sound?

Cyclists would hear it, but cars/trucks mostly wouldn't. All they would see was the red light and the bikies clipping-in and setting-off. 10s or so later the lights change.
 
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downfader

downfader

extimus uero philosophus
Location
'ampsheeeer
Instead of relying on lights which are visual to everybody, why not signal the advanced period for cyclists to move-off before cars by sound?

Cyclists would hear it, but cars/trucks mostly wouldn't. All they would see was the red light and the bikies clipping-in and setting-off. 10s or so later the lights change.


There are a lot of deaf cyclists about (my ears aint that great tbh) I think they would miss out and perhaps give up cycling if the lights had that option. Just my opinion obviously. :huh:
 

jimboalee

New Member
Location
Solihull
Idont bother if its only 3 or 4 cars, if its a halfmile que though its a different story.

At the risk of being flamed here I will admit to when turning left carefully starting off before the light changes provided i can see beyond doubt theres nothing coming . Maybe illegal but puts me ahead of the traffic and no chance of idiots overtaking me on the corner.

You won't get flamed. Not by me anyway.

I pass a queue of cars up the inside. If there's any left turn indicators, I stop.

I go right up and well past the stop line ( and the waiting vehicles ) to get a good view of the transverse lights. When their lamps change to amber, I check all is clear ( because I have a pair of eyes and a brain ), check over my shoulder and move off. By the time I'm well across the junction, the vehicles behind me have got their green light.

More times than not, I'm half way across the junction when the traffic behind start moving. Left hook? They will have to take the long way round to get within a car's length of me.

In the trade, we call it a 'Hole shot'.
 

trichens

Active Member
I was thinking about something like this a day or two ago as I was watching all the cars coming to a standstill IN the ASL area at a set of lights near to me.

How about having the lights moved back to the first white line where vehicles are required to stop already? If they move into the ASL area then they won't be able to see the lights on their side of the junction.

For cycles there should be another set of lights at the normal stop line position, much like the repeater lights you get at traffic lights in France. Link these to a sensor strip under the ASL so the lights only work if there is a cycle in the ASL area, so if there is a bike waiting the cycle lights go green a few seconds before the main set of lights. No cycles and they change at the same time as the normal lights.

Or if you wanted to be really clever, you could have a cycle only sequence on the lights so that when a cycle is detected the lights put in a cycle only crossing period like the pedestrian only sequence. Make it use a flashing orange cycle light so that ALL roads, at the same time, on the junction would allow cyclists to cross with caution, but no cars. French traffic lights outside of busy periods will display a flashing orange to allow vehicles to proceed with caution.
 
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