Red Light Jumping

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apollo179

apollo179

Well-Known Member
[QUOTE 1525816"]
See? That's exactly my point. If you can't get past this then the discussion will never move on. The ball is in your court.

We're not talking about 2am.

Please justify your daytime rljing. And that is, you running red lights whenever you think you'll get away without being hit or pulled up by the police.
[/quote]

If you are asking me to justify rljing where it is unsafe or likely to cause offence - i cant.
Because in these circumstances it is wrong.
 

Angelfishsolo

A Velocipedian
1525824 said:
Gordon Brown exhibited an error of judgement when he went back to apologize to "That bigoted woman". David Cameron similarly when he went back to give a tip to the waitress who hadn't actually served him at all.

Yes you are right. I should not have apologised.
 

Dan B

Disengaged member
1525796 said:
Because the RLJing does cause offence
As does the filtering in traffic queues, as does the riding two abreast, as does the riding in the road when there's a cycle lane, as does the riding in the road when there's a pavement, as does the riding the wrong way down a one-way road with cycle contraflow, as does the stopping in the ASL and "holding up" traffic, as does the riding in primary, as does the not wearing helmets/hi-vis, as does the not paying road(sic) tax, as does almost any act of cycling which is unavailable by law or by physics to the motorist. Some of these you can make a good case for doing on safety grounds, others (e.g. filtering/two abreast) are mostly just done for convenience.

The difference seems to be that we (by "we" I mean the mainstream of internet cycling forum users opinions) don't care if we're causing offence when we're doing something legal: ISTM that irrespective of whether apollo179 is really only RLJing at 2am or whether he's actually scattering crowds of pedestrians and causing small children to toddle for their lives out of his path as other posters have suggested he does, the question "would you support a change in the law or the guidelines for its enforcement to allow cyclist RLJ when there is nothing coming the other way" is one that could reasonably be considered in the abstract - because "it would cause offence" is only an argument against if you believe there's a crucial maximum level of allowable offence which this change would tip us over.

Probably not on this thread though, and probably not with these participants.
 

martint235

Dog on a bike
Location
Welling
Yes my point really was that in reply to your
"The only time it will cause offence to no-one, or at least that you can be sure it will cause offence to no-one, is at a completely deserted junction with no one else in sight. As soon as you bring other people into the equation, how can you be sure you're not offending anyone?"

Post
Sometimes one just will offend people.
I offend car drivers by cycling down narrow country roads.
The point re rljing is that the fact rljing in what seems to me harmless situations offends people is simply because it is illegal. Situations where there is no substantive harm - it is safe and deserted.
Make this legal and people will not have reason to get annoyed (be offended) .
yes - no ?

How does rljing in a harmless situation offend anyone? A harmless situation is one that does not involve the presence of other people or making them change their behaviour to accommodate you breaking the law. As User has pointed out, there is a huge difference between a deserted junction at 2am (although if seen by a police officer, I don't think you'd have a right to complain against a ticket) and any junction that isn't deserted. I think you're struggling to justify rljing even to yourself, let alone anyone else.

Making it legal won't stop it offending people, as you've said you offend car drivers by performing the completely legal move of cycling down a country lane. As it's legal to do that, it puts the problem firmly in the court of the person feeling aggrieved. If you want to change the law (or if the motorist wants to change the law regarding country lanes) then work towards it. Don't just ignore laws for your benefit unless you're happy for others to operate in the same manner.
 

martint235

Dog on a bike
Location
Welling
As does the filtering in traffic queues, as does the riding two abreast, as does the riding in the road when there's a cycle lane, as does the riding in the road when there's a pavement, as does the riding the wrong way down a one-way road with cycle contraflow, as does the stopping in the ASL and "holding up" traffic, as does the riding in primary, as does the not wearing helmets/hi-vis, as does the not paying road(sic) tax, as does almost any act of cycling which is unavailable by law or by physics to the motorist. Some of these you can make a good case for doing on safety grounds, others (e.g. filtering/two abreast) are mostly just done for convenience.

The difference seems to be that we (by "we" I mean the mainstream of internet cycling forum users opinions) don't care if we're causing offence when we're doing something legal: ISTM that irrespective of whether apollo179 is really only RLJing at 2am or whether he's actually scattering crowds of pedestrians and causing small children to toddle for their lives out of his path as other posters have suggested he does, the question "would you support a change in the law or the guidelines for its enforcement to allow cyclist RLJ when there is nothing coming the other way" is one that could reasonably be considered in the abstract - because "it would cause offence" is only an argument against if you believe there's a crucial maximum level of allowable offence which this change would tip us over.

Probably not on this thread though, and probably not with these participants.

I have no problem with changing the law and would probably support it. What I have a problem with is people who seem to think they can just ignore the law (whilst of course fully expecting everyone else to obey laws that they may find inconvenient).
 
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apollo179

apollo179

Well-Known Member
[QUOTE 1525816"]
See? That's exactly my point. If you can't get past this then the discussion will never move on. The ball is in your court.

We're not talking about 2am.

Please justify your daytime rljing. And that is, you running red lights whenever you think you'll get away without being hit or pulled up by the police.
[/quote]

We are talking about the set of circumstances that i have described.
If you want to answer a totally different question then i advise you start a topic that asks that question.
This topic is about the question i asked.
 

Angelfishsolo

A Velocipedian
We are talking about the set of circumstances that i have described.
If you want to answer a totally different question then i advise you start a topic that asks that question.
This topic is about the question i asked.

Ok so it is 2am and the roads are quiet. Why is it not ok for other road users to ignore red lights?
 
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apollo179

apollo179

Well-Known Member
1525830 said:
Apollo how about you get a helmet cam so you can show us a video of your RLJing and we can then see how reasonable and harmless it all is.

Good idea - but ill have to buy some better lights as i only do it at 2am.
And an alarm clock for that matter.
And a helmet cam.
Im off out now.
Ill be thinking about this as my pedals are spinning.
Laterz.
 

lukesdad

Guest
I have no problem with changing the law and would probably support it. What I have a problem with is people who seem to think they can just ignore the law (whilst of course fully expecting everyone else to obey laws that they may find inconvenient).


Mmm like the reflector law maybe ?
 
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