RLJ-ing: A Minority Pastime?

What proprotion of cyclists do you see RLJ'ing?


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martint235

Dog on a bike
Location
Welling
I think you may be confusing "respect" with "fear".
No I think there is an increasing level of low importance crime by people you wouldn't normally expect to be criminally minded. That suggests that respect has gone. It's not "Oh well if I get caught nothing will happen to me" (fear of consequence) but "Everyone else is doing it/no one gets hurt/who gives a stuff/they can afford to lose it" lack of respect for law.
 

Dan B

Disengaged member
You don't think there's a possibility left turns on red may become legal in the future? Would you say you're a pessimist in general?
I expect there's a possibility, and I'd like to see it happen. If it does, though, I think it'll have more to do with special interest groups lobbying Parliament than with the prevalence or otherwise of cyclists doing it illegally, except maybe that the former group will be able to point to the comparative lack of accidents among the latter as evidence that it's pretty safe. But they would just as effectively be able to point to the evidence of other countries where it's legal already
 

Dan B

Disengaged member
No I think there is an increasing level of low importance crime by people you wouldn't normally expect to be criminally minded. That suggests that respect has gone. It's not "Oh well if I get caught nothing will happen to me" (fear of consequence) but "Everyone else is doing it/no one gets hurt/who gives a stuff/they can afford to lose it" lack of respect for law.
Oh well, by that definition I have no respect for the law (qua law) either, then. I have respect for many of the laws, because I recognise the ethical or moral or organisational reasons for their existence - and I obey many other laws that I don't respect on that basis, because that kind of thing makes society tick along a little better - but if you said "you must respect some arbitrary law 'thou shalt do F' because It Is The Law", I have to wonder what that actually means when that law is changed or revoked or superseded and I need no longer do F, or I need to not do it.

Sorry, that's a bit cod-philosophical for a Friday night. But threatening me with increasingly dire consequences for breaking a stupid law is not going to mean I think more of the law - more likely the reverse, if anything. We are governed by our own consent, or so the theory goes.
 

martint235

Dog on a bike
Location
Welling
I expect there's a possibility, and I'd like to see it happen. If it does, though, I think it'll have more to do with special interest groups lobbying Parliament than with the prevalence or otherwise of cyclists doing it illegally, except maybe that the former group will be able to point to the comparative lack of accidents among the latter as evidence that it's pretty safe. But they would just as effectively be able to point to the evidence of other countries where it's legal already
Oh dear. Are we going to keep agreeing?

There is a school of thought on here that by cyclists ignoring red lights the law will be changed. However you need wider public support to change a law and unfortunately I think the majority of those that can be a****d to care about cyclists are unlikely to want the law changed.
 

mcshroom

Bionic Subsonic
I think there is a logic failure here. Rider's ignoring red lights is a serious public perception issue, indeed the number one issue for a lot of non-cyclists when you ask them about cycling. The reasons for this are not really relevant here, but making the population angry with your actions is unlikely to persuade them that you should be allowed a relaxing of rules to give you a privilege over other road users.

On a separate note, can anyone give me a good positive reason to RLJ? So far we've had a lot of excuses for why you feel it doesn't do any harm, but there is little/no suggestion of any positives it creates, save for the selfish line that is incredibly similar to the way that most motorists excuse speeding.
 

Dan B

Disengaged member
On a separate note, can anyone give me a good positive reason to RLJ?
'Smoothing the traffic flow' is accepted as good practice among highway engineers. By reducing the amount of stop/start riding we reduce congestion, reduce energy use, and make cycling a more accessible pursuit for the average person who does not want every commuting journey to resemble interval training.

Personally I quite like interval training, so I don't say that out of selfishness. I'm only thinking of the rest of the road-using public who would benefit from having more bikes on the roads
 

SomethingLikeThat

Über Member
Location
South London
Where I live there aren't really the numbers of cyclists around to RLJ like they'd potentially do in cities like London or Cambridge where every junction has cyclists. Most of the chavs ride on the pavement anyway.
 

Jezston

Über Member
Location
London
No I think there is an increasing level of low importance crime by people you wouldn't normally expect to be criminally minded. That suggests that respect has gone. It's not "Oh well if I get caught nothing will happen to me" (fear of consequence) but "Everyone else is doing it/no one gets hurt/who gives a stuff/they can afford to lose it" lack of respect for law.

I think it's more that you know you are seriously unlikely to get even so much as caught.

That and we have popular voices in the media telling us that such behaviour is acceptable, and have had them for so long it's become normal.

We need the kind of campaigning that pushes a moral shift in the same way we have had for drink driving and seatbelt use. However I can't see that being done for red light jumping because it mostly just annoys people and very rarely kills anyone - and when a death does occur it's invariably the perpetrator.
 

Bromptonaut

Rohan Man
Location
Bugbrooke UK
Haven't waded through whole thread so apologies for repetition. Observation on my Central London commute is that RLJ comes in three predominant types. The first is kerbside; rider going left or across top of T junction. Second is lights with daft phasing; held at red on an empty junction. Third is abuse of pedestrian lights/phases - some overlap with second group.

So the figures for major junctions over Euston Road or say Southampton Row/Kingsway with High Holborn are very low. Nobody dives straight across with only a few kerb huggers ignoring the red.

Russell Sq & Montague St lights are ignored by over half - the phasing is way out of kilter with actual traffic flows.

Motor vehicles are different. NOBODY stops on amber as the law requires. Quite common for professional bus or taxi drivers to cross after 2-3 seconds of red.
 

400bhp

Guru
'Smoothing the traffic flow' is accepted as good practice among highway engineers. By reducing the amount of stop/start riding we reduce congestion, reduce energy use, and make cycling a more accessible pursuit for the average person who does not want every commuting journey to resemble interval training.

Personally I quite like interval training, so I don't say that out of selfishness. I'm only thinking of the rest of the road-using public who would benefit from having more bikes on the roads

Interesting point that. If done correctly it should be the case shouldn't it?

It used to annoy me when driving in contraflows where 2 lanes merge into 1. Drivers wouldn't drive to the end of the 2 lanes and merge consecutively. Sometimes you'd get someone blocking one of the lanes and most of the time there would be a long single queue. A waste of space and increase in congestion.
 

Norm

Guest
I've removed some posts from this thread.if the language and attitude is repeated, some posters will also be removed.
 

Miquel In De Rain

No Longer Posting
Ok I've had a proper think now:

1. All traffic allowed to turn left at a red if safe to do so
2. All traffic lights revert to flashing amber between 10pm and 6am signalling give way to the right.
3. All ASZ and in carriageway cyclelanes abolished.
4. A law to state that if you are breaking a law you are therefore outside of the law and should not expect or receive any protection from the law.

Ok, 4 is a bit iffy but I'm not a tolerant person and I think one of the problems in the UK is that respect for the law has gone. It's time to bring it back by making the consequences of breaking the law meaningful again. Once we've restored respect in the law we can start looking at which laws are stupid and repeal them.

I've seen flashing amber and flashing red out here.I suppose flashing red is like a legal rlj or something like that.Sort of a look before you leap thingy?

Sure I got us doing this on the camera footage thingy.

It means that you must come to a complete stop. Check for vehicles coming from your left and your right. If it is safe for you to continue, you may go. If it is a 4 way flashing light, the vehicle that stops first has the right to continue first but DO NOT trust the other driver. Make sure the other driver does not think he or she stopped first and therefore cause you to collide. Use common sense..

Looked it up,flashing red.
 
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